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Thread: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    That is your opinion and it sounds great. However there is no obligation or compelling business reason for a *business* owner to pay more than the employee's work is worth. If anyone can do that work and there is a surplus of workers....it makes no sense to pay more.

    Again, those jobs, at that wage, serve a purpose (entry level, part time, supplement fixed incomes, etc etc). IMO (just my opinion) there is no reason anyone should spend most of their working life in such a position and it is an injustice to our society to enable or encourage it.

    If that wage is not acceptable, dont take the job. Is it the only job available to you? Why?
    You are right, there is no compelling business reason for a *business* owner to pay an employee more than they can find someone to accept. That is why it should be considered a moral obligation and should also be required by law. I am only advocating a reasonable increase to minimum wages to reflect the cost of living in the region where the person works. I do not think it needs to be as high as a skilled worker can demand.

    There are many reasons why a person may be desperate enough to work a minimum wage job past their teen years. Conservatives will say that the person is at fault for bad decisions and should suffer until they can change their situation. That is overly simplistic in some cases and wrong in others, it is usually self righteous and judgmental and based on incomplete information. Also fault does not matter when a whole family and/or community is impacted by a working person's low wages.

    • Missed completing education due to caring for an elderly or disabled family member.
    • Missed completing education due to unexpected child.
    • Missed completing education due to mental health, substance abuse or family problem.
    • Lack of English speaking ability.
    • Learning disability or lack of intelligence.
    • Spent youth working in the underground economy (i.e drug dealer, prostitute)
    • Mental health and/or substance abuse problems.
    • Physical disability
    • Criminal record
    • Too busy working multiple jobs to pay for child or other type of dependent care to gain additional skills.
    • Obsolete skills
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 11-25-13 at 09:20 PM.

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    You are right, there is no compelling business reason for a *business* owner to pay an employee more than they can find someone to accept. That is why it should be considered a moral obligation and should also be required by law. I am only advocating a reasonable increase to minimum wages to reflect the cost of living in the region where the person works. I do not think it needs to be as high as a skilled worker can demand.

    There are many reasons why a person may be desperate enough to work a minimum wage job past their teen years. Conservatives will say that the person is at fault for bad decisions and should suffer until they can change their situation. That is overly simplistic in some cases and wrong in others, it is usually self righteous and judgmental and based on incomplete information. Also fault does not matter when a whole family and/or community is impacted by a working person's low wages.

    • Missed completing education due to caring for an elderly or disabled family member.
    • Missed completing education due to unexpected child.
    • Missed completing education due to mental health, substance abuse or family problem.
    • Lack of English speaking ability.
    • Learning disability or lack of intelligence.
    • Spent youth working in the underground economy (i.e drug dealer, prostitute)
    • Mental health and/or substance abuse problems.
    • Physical disability
    • Criminal record
    • Too busy working multiple jobs to pay for child or other type of dependent care to gain additional skills.
    • Obsolete skills
    First, I have continually excepted the mentally or physically challenged.

    I'm not interested in people that lack good English speaking ability. There are plenty of jobs (labor) where that does not matter and that is not a 'permanent' condition. I wont go further into why we legally allowed someone into the country that is not prepared to support themself. If they are here with a family member that is sponsored then they are most likely a secondary income.

    People who spent earlier parts of their lives "unable" to acquire skills or have obsolete skills (encompasses most of your other examples one way or another)....they start at the entry-level like everyone else...as I said, that is what those jobs are for. However there in no reason IMO that they need to stay in entry-level, low-wage positions for years. If they do, why?
    Any job provides opportunities to learn skills and gain experience and big corps have programs that encourage that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    In Texas, the median annual income for a carpenter ($32K/year) is at or bellow the SNAP income threshold with three dependents even though it slightly exceeds double the federal minimum hourly wage.

    Carpenters
    And in the "old days" one breadwinner could support a family of four, including housing, transportation, food, and education.

    Lots of things wrong with the old days, of course. But that one part was nice.

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    And in the "old days" one breadwinner could support a family of four, including housing, transportation, food, and education.

    Lots of things wrong with the old days, of course. But that one part was nice.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    You are right, there is no compelling business reason for a *business* owner to pay an employee more than they can find someone to accept. That is why it should be considered a moral obligation and should also be required by law. I am only advocating a reasonable increase to minimum wages to reflect the cost of living in the region where the person works. I do not think it needs to be as high as a skilled worker can demand.

    There are many reasons why a person may be desperate enough to work a minimum wage job past their teen years. Conservatives will say that the person is at fault for bad decisions and should suffer until they can change their situation. That is overly simplistic in some cases and wrong in others, it is usually self righteous and judgmental and based on incomplete information. Also fault does not matter when a whole family and/or community is impacted by a working person's low wages.

    • Missed completing education due to caring for an elderly or disabled family member.
    • Missed completing education due to unexpected child.
    • Missed completing education due to mental health, substance abuse or family problem.
    • Lack of English speaking ability.
    • Learning disability or lack of intelligence.
    • Spent youth working in the underground economy (i.e drug dealer, prostitute)
    • Mental health and/or substance abuse problems.
    • Physical disability
    • Criminal record
    • Too busy working multiple jobs to pay for child or other type of dependent care to gain additional skills.
    • Obsolete skills
    That's a great list of reasons - good reasons - why people might not be able to work more than a minimum wage job and/or might not be able to get additional skills (esp. the "Too busy working multiple jobs to pay for child or other type of dependent care to gain additional skills.")

    But let's say they are slackers - just slackers. Let's say they managed to get through high school with decent grades, but they hate school and would never willingly go back. Or maybe they are too lazy to go back. But maybe they CAN get their lazy ass down to a minimum-wage job forty hours a week.

    I want that job to pay them enough that they don't need to rely upon tax-payer funded subsidies like food stamps and welfare. I want it to pay their health care so I don't have to pay for it if they end up in the ER for kidney stones, broken leg, e coli poisoning.

    I have a couple under-achieving young people who are near-relatives. They do get their butts to the job every day when there is a job available. (One of them is now working two part-time jobs after getting laid off from a job due to state funding cutbacks). Those jobs should be able to keep them in food, shelter, clothing. One of them lives with his mom; the other lives with her b/f in a room in a house they share with several other people - so neither of them is living "high on the hog".

    Yes, I wish they were in school. We have begged, pleaded, pushed them - no dice. We've suggested 4 yr college, 2 yr college, apprentice programs - no dice. Hopefully one of these years they will want a higher standard of living and do something about it; but hasn't happened yet. But each of them is intelligent; each of them works hard in the jobs they get. So I want those jobs to keep them off public assistance; no reason tax-payers should have to pay for them when they are working.

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I appreciate what you are saying here, and have a few differences, but you're right, we took similar paths, and both seemed to end up ok....Let me just say that retail is a hard business to do anything substantial as far as wealth creation goes...Like I said my father owned a Pharmacy, that also sold convenience items, and liquor as well, and his store although provided a good living, he wasn't a rich man by any means. I am struck by the old adage that 'you can go into business to create a job, or you can make a difference and be rich'.... My father's business although we didn't want for anything, we were no where near rich.
    Mornin' Bud. We were not rich either, and we too did not want for anything despite there being 5-kids. My Dad worked 3-jobs at one time, while my Mom worked part time. I'd be remiss if I did not ask why can't someone go into business to create a job, make a difference, and get rich? Also, with Walmart coming to every community, and all of them having pharmacies, what do you think the chances would be of your Dad opening a store in this day and age? The death of the Mom & Pop, contrary to popular belief, is not good for America. Your Dad, and the rest of the Mom & Pops are the door greeters at Walmart now.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    But the point where we have a difference is that an employer's responsibility to its workers, IMHO, is to pay a fair wage for work done (doesn't mean a livable wage), provide a safe work environment, and reasonable hours. Other than that, I think the responsibility stops there. The business doesn't adopt the person for goodness sake....You mentioned that you were also in car sales of some sort, and a manager for used cars, right? Knowing that business, I am sure that you saw your share of salesmen under you, that struggled to sell a car, or maybe every car they sold was a 'mini deal' where they made very little for moving it....But that is the business right? A car dealer pays people on commission so it is up to the person to sell the car, the more they sell it for, the better money they make. The ability to make the money is totally on the salesman....Now, do you think that if a dealer has a salesman that every car they sell is at cost, ie; 'giving them away', should then draw a living wage from the dealer if the dealer is making NO profit? And how long would that salesman last?
    I never said anything about adopting anyone for life. In fact, I emphasized "hard work". You cannot be efficient, proud workers unless you work hard. I also never mentioned anything about dead weight. No workie, no production, no job. Again, I'm not looking at something for nothing. Just fairness for the people who make a go of it, and the employer taking some responsibility for the greater good. I bring up Henry Ford once again, because he knew about paying people enough to be able to buy what they were making. Makes me think about a food drive for employees who cannot afford to buy the food products in the store they work in.

    The car business is not a job at Walmart and to be successful you have to have a skill set most people do not have. It is a step up from Walmart, and also contrary to popular belief, you do not have to be a crook to be good at it. You have to be good at a whole lot of other things, including having an ability to interact with ever kind of personality under the sun. I've had guys who had all the heart, worked hard, and just couldn't get it. Taking a weekly draw against commission and not selling cars leads to a self launching 90% of the time. For the other 10%, you just let them go. Although I can remember a few people who tried real hard, but didn't have the stuff for sales, being offered a job in another part of the store if they were worth keeping. Again, I am not against hard work and performance evaluation.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So, when you cite the raw number profit, ie; $16 Billion, $17 Billion etc...I think you are making the mistake of looking at raw numbers, and not percentages...3 to 4% is not a hell of alot of money....Considering they are the largest retail employer in the US with over 4,000 stores, and over 2 million employees. Plus, if you think that they are too big, and should be gone, what would that look like? Prices for everyone would go up, and 2 million more unemployed....Great.
    You are right, I am looking at the NET PROFIT after everything and not the claimed percentages. They gross around $120-Billion, and after some creative accounting, because they can afford the best Tax attorneys and accountants on the planet, they are making a paltry $17-Billion. Now, I'm sure that when paying off some of their debt each year they never pay money to themselves in the form of some subdivision of the corporation, just like oil companies and every other large corporation . . . nope, not Walmart. But I forgot, this creative accounting is something we all should admire. Over 4000 stores, if we spend a little less than a million a year on each store in tax dollars representing food stamps, health care, child care, etc, then Walmart receives about $4-Billion in subsidies that never appear on the bottom line . . . benefitting Walmart, its executives, and share holders only.

    I think they are too big. I wish they could be gone . . . that is not going to happen. The Big Box has changed America forever, and cemented a whole lot of people into the low paying service industry. Their profit margins prove they could be a hell of a lot more responsible . . . and not hurt the country too bad (sarcasm).

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    And in the "old days" one breadwinner could support a family of four, including housing, transportation, food, and education.

    Lots of things wrong with the old days, of course. But that one part was nice.
    But what does a family 'need' to be happy and secure? New cars every couple of yrs? The latest in electronics and other consumer items? Expensive sneakers and lots of clothes? Fancy vacations? Growing up we were lower middle class but had clothes, 1 station wagon and 1 used VW Bug, we went camping for vacations and had food on the table...most importantly, we had a small house in a safe neighborhood. My parents sacrificed alot to get out of a more urban area for that house. My mother made alot of my clothes (which I hated), and my parents said NO all the time when we asked for 'things.'

    So we grew up safe and healthy, got educations, blah blah blah, are not not drains on society. It taught us responsibility for work and respect for $$ and discipline when it came to $.

    Are Americans 'entitled' to lots of consumer goods?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    But what does a family 'need' to be happy and secure? New cars every couple of yrs? The latest in electronics and other consumer items? Expensive sneakers and lots of clothes? Fancy vacations? Growing up we were lower middle class but had clothes, 1 station wagon and 1 used VW Bug, we went camping for vacations and had food on the table...most importantly, we had a small house in a safe neighborhood. My parents sacrificed alot to get out of a more urban area for that house. My mother made alot of my clothes (which I hated), and my parents said NO all the time when we asked for 'things.'

    So we grew up safe and healthy, got educations, blah blah blah, are not not drains on society. It taught us responsibility for work and respect for $$ and discipline when it came to $.

    Are Americans 'entitled' to lots of consumer goods?
    Never said they were entitled to lots of consumer goods. I said they had food, housing, transportation, education.

    My dad supported five kids and a wife on - I think - around $30K or less a year for many years (they never told us what he earned, but I think I saw it on my financial aid forms for college eventually). My mom went to work when I was in third grade (I was youngest) as a fulltime babysitter, later real estate agent. We had adequate food, a decent house, eventually 2 cars because my mom needed one while my dad was at work (but I believe my grandparents helped buy the second car), vacations rare, going out to eat rare, etc. But he could do it - 5 kids. We never thought we were poor or low income or anything either.

    Today, supporting five kids on the average salary is a heckuva lot harder. And I'm not talking about new cars every couple years - I'm talking about the basics. They need enough food - but don't need to go out. They need a roof over the head - but of course kids can share rooms, they don't need their own room. A car that runs if they aren't on bus lines. Clothes, but they don't need to have designer labels or anything.

    Now it was a horrible burden on the sole wage earner to know that the family depended on their income; I think if you're in a relationship, both people should work if possible. But it is interesting that it takes two people now where it used to take one. Wages have not kept up with inflation, and the income gap continues to grow.

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    That's a great list of reasons - good reasons - why people might not be able to work more than a minimum wage job and/or might not be able to get additional skills (esp. the "Too busy working multiple jobs to pay for child or other type of dependent care to gain additional skills.")

    But let's say they are slackers - just slackers. Let's say they managed to get through high school with decent grades, but they hate school and would never willingly go back. Or maybe they are too lazy to go back. But maybe they CAN get their lazy ass down to a minimum-wage job forty hours a week.

    I want that job to pay them enough that they don't need to rely upon tax-payer funded subsidies like food stamps and welfare. I want it to pay their health care so I don't have to pay for it if they end up in the ER for kidney stones, broken leg, e coli poisoning.

    I have a couple under-achieving young people who are near-relatives. They do get their butts to the job every day when there is a job available. (One of them is now working two part-time jobs after getting laid off from a job due to state funding cutbacks). Those jobs should be able to keep them in food, shelter, clothing. One of them lives with his mom; the other lives with her b/f in a room in a house they share with several other people - so neither of them is living "high on the hog".

    Yes, I wish they were in school. We have begged, pleaded, pushed them - no dice. We've suggested 4 yr college, 2 yr college, apprentice programs - no dice. Hopefully one of these years they will want a higher standard of living and do something about it; but hasn't happened yet. But each of them is intelligent; each of them works hard in the jobs they get. So I want those jobs to keep them off public assistance; no reason tax-payers should have to pay for them when they are working.
    Good points. It should be their employers, not the taxpayers, who are responsible for providing for their basic needs when people work full-time.

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    Re: Wal-Mart Asks Workers To Donate Food To Its Needy Employees

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Never said they were entitled to lots of consumer goods. I said they had food, housing, transportation, education.

    My dad supported five kids and a wife on - I think - around $30K or less a year for many years (they never told us what he earned, but I think I saw it on my financial aid forms for college eventually). My mom went to work when I was in third grade (I was youngest) as a fulltime babysitter, later real estate agent. We had adequate food, a decent house, eventually 2 cars because my mom needed one while my dad was at work (but I believe my grandparents helped buy the second car), vacations rare, going out to eat rare, etc. But he could do it - 5 kids. We never thought we were poor or low income or anything either.

    Today, supporting five kids on the average salary is a heckuva lot harder. And I'm not talking about new cars every couple years - I'm talking about the basics. They need enough food - but don't need to go out. They need a roof over the head - but of course kids can share rooms, they don't need their own room. A car that runs if they aren't on bus lines. Clothes, but they don't need to have designer labels or anything.

    Now it was a horrible burden on the sole wage earner to know that the family depended on their income; I think if you're in a relationship, both people should work if possible. But it is interesting that it takes two people now where it used to take one. Wages have not kept up with inflation, and the income gap continues to grow.
    Dont have more kids than you can afford! No one is entitled to have kids, period. But it is irresponsible to have them if you dont have the ability to support them.

    Your dad did, mine did (4 kids).

    Personally, I believe it's best if one parent can remain at home until the kids are all in school...meaning one income for quite some time. And people who are committed to that CAN DO IT. They do it. Our society of entitlement and consumerism just skews people's perspectives so badly that they dont examine what they really need and what is really important.

    We didnt have money for fancy vacations or travel. We camped. And we loved it and learned alot and had fun. It actually influenced my first degree, in Natural Resource Management. Yeah, I would have loved to go to DisneyWorld but there was no $$ for that until I was almost leaving for college.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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