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Thread: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida [W:351]

  1. #321
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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    No, I think Zimmerman is responsible for Martin's death - that does not equate to Murder. The Jury says that he wasn't quilty of the Murder charge and I accept that.


    I think the prosecution presented a very weak case and that the Murder charge was over charged from the get-go. IMHO, I think Murder 2 was charged for politics and in the hopes of scaring him into pleading guilty to a lesser charge in the plea deal. Since Zimmerman created the situation and Martin had tried to evade Zimmerman at least twice (from Zimmerman's account) and it was Zimmerman that continued the pursuit first in a vehicle and then on foot - I think negligent homicide/voluntary manslaughter (or Florida's equivalent) would have been a better and believable charge.



    >>>>
    All is well in your account...accept Trayvon had time to get home. He turned around to "confront" Zimmerman with his fists. He attacked Zimmerman. The party responsible for the crime was Trayvon.

    Zimmerman broke no laws. He tried to give police a better description and location and was going back to his truck. Remember his neighborhood had already been victimized twice. He is only guilty of a lesser charge in public opinion where evidence is irrelevant.
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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    I disagree. There are variances in discrepancies, so every situation is different. But if zim pushed Martin, i would support matrons right to stomp his ass out. But if zim didn't throw the first blow, then Martin got what he deserved.
    I agree up to a point. If zimmerman threw the first punch, then Martin had the right to punch him, but once Zimmerman was flat out on the ground, that should have been the end of it, unless Zimmerman got back up. IMHO, Martin crossed the line when he got on top of Zimmerman and continued to pound away on a virtually helpless person. At that point, Zimmerman had every right to fear that Martin would not stop beating him until he was dead or unconscious.
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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    and even if that had been the case, Zimmerman would still have been covered under the FL statutes for self-defense and use of force by an aggressor.
    Only under very specific conditions such that he had retreated and indicated a willingness to end the fist fight and the person that he'd attacked reengaged..

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    and FWIW. if someone is flat on their back, bleeding from the face and back of the head...how much of a perceived threat can they be....
    Quite a bit. I've seen a number of real-life fights before and just because you have a boo-boo on your face and a small cut on the back of the head does not mean you are out.


    >>>>

  4. #324
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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I agree up to a point. If zimmerman threw the first punch, then Martin had the right to punch him, but once Zimmerman was flat out on the ground, that should have been the end of it, unless Zimmerman got back up. IMHO, Martin crossed the line when he got on top of Zimmerman and continued to pound away on a virtually helpless person.
    I agree there.
    At that point, Zimmerman had every right to fear that Martin would not stop beating him until he was dead or unconscious.
    agreed, but still, it would be zimmermans fault in the first place. Though, it would be ruthless and not respectable on martins part.

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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    Yeah, but it would be all zims fault. Once you start a fight, you are the aggressor.
    FL 776.041 para 2a
    even if you are the aggressor you are legally authorized to use force, even deadly force if/when:

    Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant
    It was Zimmerman's defense that he was in such reasonable fear. and by being flat on his back with Martin on top of him, there was no reasonable means to escape.
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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    which leads to a chain reaction. if zimmerman pushed Martin, then martin had the right to push him back....not knock him down and pound his head against the ground.
    You mean with equally proportionate response?

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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    FL 776.041 para 2a
    even if you are the aggressor you are legally authorized to use force, even deadly force if/when:



    It was Zimmerman's defense that he was in such reasonable fear. and by being flat on his back with Martin on top of him, there was no reasonable means to escape.
    Hmm.... I didn't know about that law. Well, that changes things a bit.

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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    I agree there.
    agreed, but still, it would be zimmermans fault in the first place. Though, it would be ruthless and not respectable on martins part.
    we could play the "whose fault was it in the first place" game all day long.


    you could argue that if zimmerman had stayed in his car it never would have happened so it was his fault

    you could argue that if trayvon had gone straight home from the store instead of wandering around it never would have happened, so it was his fault

    you could argue that if zimmerman had sent his wife to the store instead of going himself it never would have happened

    you could argue that if trayvon hadn't taken drugs to school, he'd have been home in miami-dade instead of at his father's girlfriend's house in sanford and it would never have happened, so it was his fault.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    we could play the "whose fault was it in the first place" game all day long.


    you could argue that if zimmerman had stayed in his car it never would have happened so it was his fault

    you could argue that if trayvon had gone straight home from the store instead of wandering around it never would have happened, so it was his fault

    you could argue that if zimmerman had sent his wife to the store instead of going himself it never would have happened

    you could argue that if trayvon hadn't taken drugs to school, he'd have been home in miami-dade instead of at his father's girlfriend's house in sanford and it would never have happened, so it was his fault.
    Point taken. I've used almost that exact same rhetoric in the past when debating with martinbots.

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    Re: George Zimmerman Arrested Again In Central Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    Hmm.... I didn't know about that law. Well, that changes things a bit.
    that's why many people, myself included, think it is a bad law. under those provisions, you could chase someone down, attack them and then if it went badly for you, shoot them and then claim self-defense. which is what many people claim actually happened.

    IMHO, based on evidence and witness testimony. I think it went down like this. ZImmerman saw martin and thought he looked suspicious (just like the other 47 or so black guys he thought looked suspicious). followed him in his car. trayvon noticed and ducked between the buildings and instead of going home decided, for some reason, to wait for zimmerman. zimmerman got out of his car to look for trayvon. they met up on the sidewalk and zimmerman asked trayvon what he was doing around there (as testified by W8). either out of fear or indignation, trayvon punched zimmerman in the face and knocked him down. adrenaline kicked in and he got on top of Z to continue the beatdown. Zimmerman panicked and thought Trayvon was going to beat him to death and shot him.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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