• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges[W:287]

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:
No, it doesn't really work that way. The projectile(s) are long gone out the barrel before the rise.
Click to expand...

All I am saying is that the article doesn't say that he opened the door, nor does it say that he was aiming at her head, or anything like that. In fact the reasonable explanation when reading the article is that he had the shotgun aimed at the door, as he approached and the gun fired accidentally, went through the door and happened to hit her in the head....In fact, from what I see in the article, it doesn't say that he knew it was a girl, nor how tall she was, so this rush to make Wafer out to be someone who opened the door, took aim, and blew her head off is ridiculous.
 
Last edited:
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
What did the OP article say? Or did you have to do a search before you could find one that included a speculation by the prosecutor to say what you wanted...Now find for me in the op article where ANY speculation infers that the door was opened?
Click to expand...

You got pwned, and now you're trying to insist that I offer proof that he opened the door, while you speculate that he shot through the front door, with no evidence to support you, and in spite of the picture taken after the shooting which shows no hole in the door.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
Of course! When I open the door to someone who I think poses a threat, I point the gun towards random objects and sometimes the threat rushes to put their face wherever the gun is pointed.
Click to expand...
Or she came into line with the barrel on her own startling him.
So again, stop assuming.
Even if aimed at her, by the evidence we have it is only a Manslaughter charge, not Murder 2
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
You got pwned, and now you're trying to insist that I offer proof that he opened the door, while you speculate that he shot through the front door, with no evidence to support you, and in spite of the picture taken after the shooting which shows no hole in the door.
Click to expand...

There you go making **** up again...Nowhere did I say "front door" did I? In fact, the article you cherry picked to refute what I was saying, says this...

"Could there be valid argument of self-defense in this case if the defendant was behind a locked screen door? “Certainly that’s a possibility,” says Henning."

Now instead of making stuff up, and not even apparently reading your own articles, just try being honest for a change.

I don't know if it was a justified shooting or not, but I do know that at 4:30am, in not the best of neighborhoods in Detroit, and you are awoken by a drunk person banging on your door, and shouting at you, that is not going to end well....And it didn't....The justice system will have the final word.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

danarhea said:
Manslaughter, yes, but murder? I just don't see it. Murder has to involve malice, and I don't see malice here. I do see manslaugher, but murder charges are ridiculous. What does everybody else think?

Article is here.
Click to expand...

The three charges are Murder 2, manslaughter and unlawful discharge(possibly in commission of felony)

I figured the murder 2 is just to help give leverage to manslaughter, not an uncommon practice to my knowledge when multiple charges are levied



but yes unless there is more info out there i think a sole charge of murder would be a mistake.

shooting through the door is almost a guaranteed conviction for manslaughter if we have all the facts.

M2 would require more in my meaningless opinion, there were some RUMORS about 911 call times though and moving/relocating the body.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
Or she came into line with the barrel on her own startling him.
So again, stop assuming.
Even if aimed at her, by the evidence we have it is only a Manslaughter charge, not Murder 2
Click to expand...

I don't even know if he'll get that....According to sangha's own article....

"Could there be valid argument of self-defense in this case if the defendant was behind a locked screen door? “Certainly that’s a possibility,” says Henning. “It is possible that there was shouting, or perhaps an effort to open up the door, or bang on a window or something like that could give him a basis to believe that there was a threat that someone was going to break into his home. From there, you could infer a threat of death or serious bodily harm.”
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

also to stay on track these are the facts we know so far


car wreck a little before 1
cell phone was dead
911 was called to report accident by passer by/ neighbor
People stopped to help
driver was disoriented and bloody
driver left scene
driver returned to scene, 911 was called again to report this about 1:25
cops and EMS show up to seen about 1:42, driver is gone
driver left scene
driver knocked on locked screen door about a mile away (driver is a 19yr old woman 5'4")
home owner opened interior door (home owner is 54yr old man, over 6ft and 200lbs)
driver was shot in the face through locked screen door
911 was called to report shooting by home owner, he said he shot someone and he hung up about 4:45)
911 dispatched police
911 called homeowner back and he confirmed he shot someone he didnt know on his porch
police arrive find driver on porch with large hole in face

no evidence of forced entry

autopsy confirms homicide and shot in face at a distance
toxicology reveals drinking and weed in driver


Murder 2 charges have been filed along with man slaughter and possession of a firearm during the attempted commission of a felony or commission of a felony.

anything else feel free to add with links
 
Last edited:
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
There you go making **** up again...Nowhere did I say "front door" did I? In fact, the article you cherry picked to refute what I was saying, says this...

"Could there be valid argument of self-defense in this case if the defendant was behind a locked screen door? “Certainly that’s a possibility,” says Henning."

Now instead of making stuff up, and not even apparently reading your own articles, just try being honest for a change.

I don't know if it was a justified shooting or not, but I do know that at 4:30am, in not the best of neighborhoods in Detroit, and you are awoken by a drunk person banging on your door, and shouting at you, that is not going to end well....And it didn't....The justice system will have the final word.
Click to expand...

So now you're going to pretend that we were discussing whether or not it was a "justified shooting" or not?

We were talking about your claim about whether the gun was "proactively" pointed towards the victim. Your attempt to distract from that has failed.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
So now you're going to pretend that we were discussing whether or not it was a "justified shooting" or not?

We were talking about your claim about whether the gun was "proactively" pointed towards the victim. Your attempt to distract from that has failed.
Click to expand...

I am not pretending anything....As with most conversations between adults, they move forward...But then again maybe I am not taking into account whom I have engaged....;)
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

AGENT J said:
driver knocked on locked screen door about a mile away (driver is a 19yr old woman 5'4")
Click to expand...
Not knocking. He reported banging.
And unless, or until, further information comes about making her age and height relevant, it is irrelevant.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
1.)Not knocking. He reported banging.
2.) And unless, or until, further information comes about making her age and height relevant, it is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

link to make that fact?
ive read "heard noises" , heard breaking in, heard what sounded like people etc etc but all speculation but none "quoted" from him or official statement or from an official investigator

1.)every official report says the country prosecutor states the evidence shows she was knocking. this is about current facts, ill stick with that until you have something else
2.) interesting can you show me where i claimed it meant anything in addition to actually listing it? i only listed as fact. thanks
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
I am not pretending anything....As with most conversations between adults, they move forward...But then again maybe I am not taking into account whom I have engaged....;)
Click to expand...

So I see you've given up trying to pretend that the gun was somehow pointed without intent.

Probably the smartest decision you've made in this thread
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

AGENT J said:
1.)every official report says the country prosecutor states the evidence shows she was knocking....
Click to expand...

Just as a question J, how would she be able to tell the difference between a polite knock, and an open handed pounding on the screen door at 4:30 am....Was she there?
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

AGENT J said:
link to make that fact?
ive read "heard noises" , heard breaking in, heard what sounded like people etc etc but all speculation but none "quoted" from him or official statement or from an official investigator

1.)every official report says the country prosecutor states the evidence shows she was knocking. this is about current facts, ill stick with that until you have something else
2.) interesting can you show me where i claimed it meant anything in addition to actually listing it? i only listed as fact. thanks
Click to expand...

Play the video in the player to hear it.

Wafer says: "Uh yes... I just shot somebody on my front porch. with a shotgun, banging on my door." Wafer gives his address (we deleted the address in our post) and ends the call by saying "thank you" and hanging up, even as police dispatch continued.

Audio: 911 call made by Theodore Wafer after he shot Renisha McB - Fox 2 News Headlines​


Please note that he didn't say it was a girl he shot.
He may not have known.


2. Pointing out it's relevancy should be apparent to you.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
So I see you've given up trying to pretend that the gun was somehow pointed without intent.

Probably the smartest decision you've made in this thread
Click to expand...

Oh, I never said that he wasn't pointing the gun, but I don't think, and still don't think that he was intentionally pointing it at her head....Are we clear now?
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
All I am saying is that the article doesn't say that he opened the door, nor does it say that he was aiming at her head, or anything like that. In fact the reasonable explanation when reading the article is that he had the shotgun aimed at the door, as he approached and the gun fired accidentally, went through the door and happened to hit her in the head....In fact, from what I see in the article, it doesn't say that he knew it was a girl, nor how tall she was, so this rush to make Wafer out to be someone who opened the door, took aim, and blew her head off is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I agree and have already pointed out the difference between aim a gun at someone and hold a gun that is pointing at someone.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
Oh, I never said that he wasn't pointing the gun, but I don't think, and still don't think that he was intentionally pointing it at her head....Are we clear now?
Click to expand...

What's clear is that you don't understand how the law uses the term "intent"

The direction the gun was pointed in did not happen "by accident", nor did the gun point itself. The direction the gun was pointed was the result of the deliberate and intentional acts of the killer.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:
I agree and have already pointed out the difference between aim a gun at someone and hold a gun that is pointing at someone.
Click to expand...
Some folks don't get it.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
What's clear is that you don't understand how the law uses the term "intent"

The direction the gun was pointed in did not happen "by accident", nor did the gun point itself. The direction the gun was pointed was the result of the deliberate and intentional acts of the killer.
Click to expand...
:doh
That doesn't show intent to kill. Nor does an accidental discharge.

Hell, even the MCL I cited shows that simply aiming is not intent to kill.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
Not knocking. He reported banging.
And unless, or until, further information comes about making her age and height relevant, it is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

I didn't know banging on someone's door is now reason enough to shoot their face off.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
:doh
That doesn't show intent to kill. Nor does an accidental discharge.

Hell, even the MCL I cited shows that simply aiming is not intent to kill.
Click to expand...

So pointing a gun at someone's face and shooting them, is not intent to kill? Are you serious?
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
What's clear is that you don't understand how the law uses the term "intent"

The direction the gun was pointed in did not happen "by accident", nor did the gun point itself. The direction the gun was pointed was the result of the deliberate and intentional acts of the killer.
Click to expand...

Prove "intent" then in this case....I'll wait.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Tettsuo said:
So pointing a gun at someone's face and shooting them, is not intent to kill? Are you serious?
Click to expand...

How do you know he knew it was pointing at her face? Are you serious?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom