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Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges[W:287]

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Tettsuo said:
So he accidentally shot what he was pointing his shotgun at? I'm sorry, 2nd degree murder is appropriate when someone is so insanely reckless that they carelessly disregard human life by pointing a weapon at someone who's not a threat.
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As the man claims that his shotgun went off accidentally, I don't think you can claim he was "pointing" his weapon at the girl with purpose, it could have been in her direction. And unless you have access to the actual forensics involved, then you are assuming way too much.

But, I will say this is a tragedy, the girl should be alive today. It is just sad that the area in which he lives prompts him to assume danger first....
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
You clearly are lost.
He was resounding to a perceived threat. Therefore was not reckless.
Nor is it Murder 2, but manslaughter.
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So a knock at your door in the dead of night is a threat?
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
As the man claims that his shotgun went off accidentally, I don't think you can claim he was "pointing" his weapon at the girl with purpose, it could have been in her direction. And unless you have access to the actual forensics involved, then you are assuming way too much.

But, I will say this is a tragedy, the girl should be alive today. It is just sad that the area in which he lives prompts him to assume danger first....
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Sorry, but that's utterly ridiculous. You don't accidentally point a shotgun at someone's head. You don't just have a shotgun raised with your finger on the trigger that just happens to be pointed at someone's face.

I hope to God you don't own a gun if you're going to go with that line of thought.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
You clearly are lost.
He was resounding to a perceived threat. Therefore was not reckless.
Nor is it Murder 2, but manslaughter.

And btw, try citing Michigan law and not an inapplicable legal dictionary.
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I agree. It was manslaughter. The prosecutor is probably attempting to leverage a plea deal here, so it doesn't end up going to trial.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

danarhea said:
I agree. It was manslaughter. The prosecutor is probably attempting to leverage a plea deal here, so it doesn't end up going to trial.
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Of course.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Tettsuo said:
So a knock at your door in the dead of night is a threat?
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What knock?
Have you not been paying attention? He heard banging.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Tettsuo said:
Sorry, but that's utterly ridiculous. You don't accidentally point a shotgun at someone's head. You don't just have a shotgun raised with your finger on the trigger that just happens to be pointed at someone's face.

I hope to God you don't own a gun if you're going to go with that line of thought.
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You are making way to many assumptions in reference to pointing. The only thing we know for sure is that when it accidentally went off, it was pointed in the same direction. Which may not have been on purpose.

But what we do know is, that under Michigan law such a scenario with deliberate pointing is manslaughter.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Tettsuo said:
Sorry, but that's utterly ridiculous. You don't accidentally point a shotgun at someone's head. You don't just have a shotgun raised with your finger on the trigger that just happens to be pointed at someone's face.
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See, that's where you don't get it....he didn't have to proactively have the shotgun pointed at the girls face in order for it to hit here there....You clearly don't understand forensics, nor do you seem to grasp the physics of firing a shotgun.

I hope to God you don't own a gun if you're going to go with that line of thought.
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I own several, and hold a CCP as well...I can assure you that I am probably more qualified to own a gun than you ever hope to be sir.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
See, that's where you don't get it....he didn't have to proactively have the shotgun pointed at the girls face in order for it to hit here there....You clearly don't understand forensics, nor do you seem to grasp the physics of firing a shotgun.



I own several, and hold a CCP as well...I can assure you that I am probably more qualified to own a gun than you ever hope to be sir.
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What is the difference between "pro-actively pointing a gun" somewhere and just doing it the normal way?
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
What is the difference between "pro-actively pointing a gun" somewhere and just doing it the normal way?
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If you are holding the shotgun up to your shoulder, and taking aim, that is 'proactive'.... if say, you have the gun at your hip, or just cradling it apart from the firing stance and aim, and it goes off that load is headed down range at the trajectory it was pointing at....Doesn't mean he meant to shoot her in the face, if at all.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
If you are holding the shotgun up to your shoulder, and taking aim, that is 'proactive'.... if say, you have the gun at your hip, or just cradling it apart from the firing stance and aim, and it goes off that load is headed down range at the trajectory it was pointing at....Doesn't mean he meant to shoot her in the face, if at all.
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You must be using a different meaning for the term "pro-actively" than the rest of us use. For the rest of us, "pro-actively" doesn't have anything to do with an intention to shoot someone.

My understanding is that when you "just cradle" a gun with no intention of firing, then you point it down.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
You must be using a different meaning for the term "pro-actively" than the rest of us use. For the rest of us, "pro-actively" doesn't have anything to do with an intention to shoot someone.

My understanding is that when you "just cradle" a gun with no intention of firing, then you point it down.
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So, are you saying that this girl could not have been shot in anything other than an intentional act? Really? I tell ya...Sometimes this is why I get frustrated with this place....My God! You want to pick apart every word, instead of addressing what it is I am saying...:(
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
So, are you saying that this girl could not have been shot in anything other than an intentional act?
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Twisting my words will not hide the way you have twisted the facts.

I have clearly stated, more than once, that we don't have enough info to know what happened. We do not know if he intentionally fired the gun, or if it fired unintentionally. However, normal and reasonable people realize that guns do not get pointed at peoples' faces "on accident".
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
There is that spin again. Young girl indeed. :doh
Young woman is what she was. A 19 year old woman.

Now show he knew that was who was at the door.
You can't because it is most likely he didn't know.
Nor do you know if he pointed it or not.
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You can get caught up on the word or accept it's relevance. A 19yr old is less threatening in appearance than an older woman and certainly less than a grown man.
You are clearly committed to an opinion. Let's not discuss.
 
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Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
My understanding is that when you "just cradle" a gun with no intention of firing, then you point it down.
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Of course you would do this during non-use for safety purposes.
This situation, one of a perceived threat, it would be unwise to do that and not have it at ready.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

opendebate said:
You can get caught up on the word or accept it's relevance. A 19yr old is less threatening in appearance than an older woman and certain less than a grown man.
You are clearly committed to an opinion. Let's not discuss.
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It isn't relevant as already pointed out. So there is no need to accept it.
It was nothing but spin on your part.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
However, normal and reasonable people realize that guns do not get pointed at peoples' faces "on accident".
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Normal people realize that you shouldn't assume that it was.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
Of course you would do this during non-use for safety purposes.
This situation, one of a perceived threat, it would be unwise to do that and not have it at ready.
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Of course. If you perceive a threat, and pointing the weapon at the threat, then you are not merely "cradling" the gun. You're aiming it.

The gun going off may have been unintentional, but aiming the gun could not be accidental.

Excon said:
Normal people realize that you shouldn't assume that it was.
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That it was "what"? Aimed at her face?

I think the fact that when it went off, she got shot in the face strongly suggests that the gun was pointed at her face.

But maybe he had one of those new curvy bullets :shrug:
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
Of course. If you perceive a threat, and pointing the weapon at the threat, then you are not merely "cradling" the gun. You're aiming it.

The gun going off may have been unintentional, but aiming the gun could not be accidental.
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And that is only if you are assuming pointing/aiming at the threat, which should not be done.

And even if it was purposely aimed, it is manslaughter. Not Muder2.

sangha said:
That it was "what"? Aimed at her face?

I think the fact that when it went off, she got shot in the face strongly suggests that the gun was pointed at her face.

But maybe he had one of those new curvy bullets :shrug:
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:doh:lamo:doh


No it does not mean it was pointed at her face. As in a deliberate act.
Nor does it mean it was pointed at her face at all.
Or do you not understand the spread of a shotgun blast?
We do not even know if it was shot or slug.
You just can't assume these things.
 
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Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
That it was "what"? Aimed at her face?

I think the fact that when it went off, she got shot in the face strongly suggests that the gun was pointed at her face.
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How do you know it was "aimed at her face?" It could have just as easily been aimed at the door, and when it went off the recoil rose the barrel and the shot ended up hitting her in the face?

Have you ever fired a shotgun, or a gun of any type?
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
How do you know it was "aimed at her face?" It could have just as easily been aimed at the door, and when it went off the recoil rose the barrel and the shot ended up hitting her in the face?

Have you ever fired a shotgun, or a gun of any type?
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Of course! When I open the door to someone who I think poses a threat, I point the gun towards random objects and sometimes the threat rushes to put their face wherever the gun is pointed.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

DiAnna said:
I disagree with you completely... as do most law enforcement and military agencies. The first rule of gun safety taught to anyone, either in a private or professional setting, is that you never, ever point a gun at someone if you do not intend to kill them. He pointed a gun at a woman who was on the other side of a screen door, no threat to him, and obviously unarmed.

At the very least, this is negligent homicide (i.e. manslaughter) but his actions were so blatantly unnecessary and extraordinarily dangerous that I personally do not believe 2nd Degree Murder is a stretch. She did not break down his door and charge into his house; he voluntarily opened his door, pointed a shotgun at her and killed her as she stood on the other side of a closed screen door.

You may justify that however you wish. I, however, do not believe it can possibly be justified by the information we currently have available.
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I wasn't justifying what he did. I was responding to someone claiming it is ALWAYS manslaughter to "accidentally" shoot someone, and I explained that it is not giving a theoretical example of when it would not.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

j-mac said:
How do you know it was "aimed at her face?" It could have just as easily been aimed at the door, and when it went off the recoil rose the barrel and the shot ended up hitting her in the face?

Have you ever fired a shotgun, or a gun of any type?
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No, it doesn't really work that way. The projectile(s) are long gone out the barrel before the rise.
 
Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
Of course! When I open the door to someone who I think poses a threat, I point the gun towards random objects and sometimes the threat rushes to put their face wherever the gun is pointed.
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Where does the article in the OP say that Wafer opened the door? Have you even read the opening article? Because if you have, then you are just making **** up here.
 
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Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

I fully disagree with the slogan that you never point a firearm at someone you are not intending to kill. You point a firearm at someone preparing to use the firearm for self defense if necessary.
 
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