Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges[W:287]

Excon · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

DiAnna said:
I agree the guy should be criminally prosecuted, but I'm not getting why 2nd Degree Murder is such a stretch. The guy opened his front door, the girl was standing on the other side of a screen door, he pointed a shotgun at her face and pretty much blew her head off through the screen door.

I guess you are not getting it because you have assumed facts not in evidence.
You have no idea if he purposely pointed the gun at her face.
And he claims accidental discharge, which under Michigan law would be a manslaughter charge because there was no intent to harm.

Or the following, being pretty much the same if he had aimed.

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.329 Discharging firearm pointed or aimed at another person resulting in death; manslaughter; exception; "peace officer" defined.

Sec. 329.

(1) A person who wounds, maims, or injures another person by discharging a firearm that is pointed or aimed intentionally but without malice at another person is guilty of manslaughter if the wounds, maiming, or injuries result in death.

(2) This section does not apply to a peace officer of this state or another state, or of a local unit of government of this state or another state, or of the United States, performing his or her duties as a peace officer. As used in this section, "peace officer" means that term as defined in section 215.

History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.329 ;-- Am. 2005, Act 303, Imd. Eff. Dec. 21, 2005

Michigan Legislature - Section 750.329

joko104 · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
I guess you are not getting it because you have assumed facts not in evidence.
You have no idea if he purposely pointed the gun at her face.
And he claims accidental discharge, which under Michigan law would be a manslaughter charge because there was no intent to harm.

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.329 Discharging firearm pointed or aimed at another person resulting in death; manslaughter;
exception; "peace officer" defined.

Sec. 329.

(1) A person who wounds, maims, or injures another person by discharging a firearm that is pointed or aimed intentionally but without malice at another person is guilty of manslaughter if the wounds, maiming, or injuries result in death.

(2) This section does not apply to a peace officer of this state or another state, or of a local unit of government of this state or another state, or of the United States, performing his or her duties as a peace officer. As used in this section, "peace officer" means that term as defined in section 215.

History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.329 ;-- Am. 2005, Act 303, Imd. Eff. Dec. 21, 2005

Michigan Legislature - Section 750.329

"Malice" would be rather hard to prove in this case I would think.

SMTA · Nov 17, 2013

Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

sangha said:
It sounds sketchy to me too

The guy hears someone at his front door - OK
He feels like his life is threatened - OK
So he gets his gun - OK
and opens the front door --WTF???

There could some sequence of events that make his actions make sense, but I'm not seeing it.

But life is strange. We'll have to wait to hear the details.

I have no problem with someone answering a door with a gun in hand if they feel it necessary - I have done it once or twice - but it has been carefully with a handgun, and I have not taken anyone out yet.

One does not point any gun at anything or anyone unless one is prepared to destroy it.

Intelligent gun handling is no different that intelligent driving or intelligent Sawzall handling - make a stupid mistake and someone gets hurt or killed.

I hate to see something like this.

/Speculation on:
If the homeowner had been holding the shotgun against and across his chest, and not pointed at the girl's face, none of this would have happened.
/Speculation off

This is exactly why I do not use long guns for self defense.
A handgun, for me, is less apparent, easier to control, and easier to slip in a holster to remove it from the situation when necessary.

Mason66 · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Summerwind said:
I've not read that there were folks at the scene at the time she left the scene. Regardless, leaving the scene of an accident due to drunkenness or other form of disorientation or just because she f'ing felt like is no reason to shoot someone through a locked door based on any information to date.

I never said it did. You made that connection.

reinoe · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:
OK, I did not read that. Replace the word "knock" with "bang."

Of course if he's going to make **** up, he might as well say she lunged at him with what he thought was a knife.

It's amazing how many times I've knocked on a door to wake someone up and they claim I was "banging" on the door.:roll:

DiAnna · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:
When did the prosecutor release evidence to prove he "aimed" at her face? I haven't seen that yet.

Please respond to what I wrote, not to your interpretation of what I wrote. I said he "pointed" his shotgun at her face, and the evidence of that is that shotguns hit what they are pointed at, and this one blew her face off.

joko104 · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

DiAnna said:
Please respond to what I wrote, not to your interpretation of what I wrote. I said he "pointed" his shotgun at her face, and the evidence of that is that shotgun hit what they are pointed at, and this one blew her face off.

OK, obviously. Big difference between aiming and pointing a firearm in terms of show intent.

joko104 · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

The Defense should subpoena Joe Biden's statement about shotguns and prowlers at night. I mean, this guy only fired ONE blast, not 2.

That would be a curious element if the defense presented that of many instantaneous panic reasoning included the Defendant had seen Joe Biden explaining this - and even more interesting would be to explain that's why he had a shotgun instead of opened the door holding a pistol. Because Joe Biden, Vice President (and attorney) said that is what everyone should do:

1. OPEN A DOOR TO THE OUTSIDE
2. FIRE A SHOTGUN TWICE

How can what he did by opening the door be TOTALLY reckless when the attorney Vice President said to do exactly that - and the media did not declare that is wrong in commenting. He was doing what his government and an attorney of his government said is the thing to do.

IF the prosecution continues with a murder charge, instead of just manslaughter, that would be entirely relevant as for murder the question is opened up of what was in his mind, what was his motives, and was it malice or not?

He is a murderer for following the Vice President's televised advice? Maybe Biden should have been more careful what he said, such as "be absolutely certain you don't shoot someone when you do."

Nor did Biden say "dial 911."

DiAnna · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:
OK, obviously. Big difference between aiming and pointing a firearm in terms of show intent.

Which is why I said "pointed"... which you deliberately changed to "aim", knowing that word significantly changed the meaning of my statement.

Even if the discharge was accidental (and it was a freaking shotgun, not a hair-trigger handgun), if the gun had not been pointed at the victim when it fired, the victim would not be dead, and if the homeowner did not intend to kill the person on his porch, he had no damned business pointing a gun at her in the first place.

joko104 · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

DiAnna said:
Which is why I said "pointed"... which you deliberately changed to "aim", knowing that word significantly changed the meaning of my statement.

Even if the discharge was accidental (and it was a freaking shotgun, not a hair-trigger handgun), if the gun had not been pointed at the victim when it fired, the victim would not be dead, and if the homeowner did not intend to kill the person on his porch, he had no damned business pointing a gun at her in the first place.

I totally disagree that pointing a firearm at someone shows intention to kill the person. It may likely show a willingness or potential to do so.

opendebate · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

DiAnna said:
Which is why I said "pointed"... which you deliberately changed to "aim", knowing that word significantly changed the meaning of my statement.

Even if the discharge was accidental (and it was a freaking shotgun, not a hair-trigger handgun), if the gun had not been pointed at the victim when it fired, the victim would not be dead, and if the homeowner did not intend to kill the person on his porch, he had no damned business pointing a gun at her in the first place.

If the porch light was working, which I don't know, why in the world would he feel it was necessary to "point" his weapon at a young girl. I don't consider the time of night a valid reason either.

DiAnna · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:
I totally disagree that pointing a firearm at someone shows intention to kill the person. It may likely show a willingness or potential to do so.

I disagree with you completely... as do most law enforcement and military agencies. The first rule of gun safety taught to anyone, either in a private or professional setting, is that you never, ever point a gun at someone if you do not intend to kill them. He pointed a gun at a woman who was on the other side of a screen door, no threat to him, and obviously unarmed.

At the very least, this is negligent homicide (i.e. manslaughter) but his actions were so blatantly unnecessary and extraordinarily dangerous that I personally do not believe 2nd Degree Murder is a stretch. She did not break down his door and charge into his house; he voluntarily opened his door, pointed a shotgun at her and killed her as she stood on the other side of a closed screen door.

You may justify that however you wish. I, however, do not believe it can possibly be justified by the information we currently have available.

reinoe · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

How do you answer a door and accidentally shoot someone in the face exactly?

Did he answer the door with the gun pointed at the woman? It's like walking around with a knife. Don't we almost instinctively hold it down so we don't accidentally walk around a corner and stab someone?

danarhea · Nov 17, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:
When did the prosecutor release evidence to prove he "aimed" at her face? I haven't seen that yet.

If her face is missing, then that's where he aimed.... Logic 101. :mrgreen:

Excon · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

DiAnna said:
Even if the discharge was accidental (and it was a freaking shotgun, not a hair-trigger handgun), if the gun had not been pointed at the victim when it fired, the victim would not be dead, and if the homeowner did not intend to kill the person on his porch, he had no damned business pointing a gun at her in the first place.

He had every right and business to be pointing a gun at a person he believed was trying to break into his house.

And the discharge being accidental would mean there was a lack of intent.

DiAnna said:
The first rule of gun safety taught to anyone, either in a private or professional setting, is that you never, ever point a gun at someone if you do not intend to kill them.

DiAnna said:
He pointed a gun at a woman who was on the other side of a screen door, no threat to him, and obviously unarmed.

You are again assuming he pointed it. When he may have been just carrying it with the barrel facing in the direction of the possible threat.
Not that this matters to an accidental discharge, but how was he to know the person on the other side wasn't a threat or wasn't armed?
You are assuming way to much here.

DiAnna said:
but his actions were so blatantly unnecessary and extraordinarily dangerous that I personally do not believe 2nd Degree Murder is a stretch.

No they were not unnecessary or extraordinary dangerous.
Even if he did have his finger on the trigger and pointed it at her it was wise in the situation he believed he was in ~ someone breaking into his house.

DiAnna said:
pointed a shotgun at her and killed her as she stood on the other side of a closed screen door.

More assumptions on your part.

DiAnna said:
You may justify that however you wish. I, however, do not believe it can possibly be justified by the information we currently have available.

Under the current information we have it is manslaughter. Murder 2 being a stretch.

Excon · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

opendebate said:
If the porch light was working, which I don't know, why in the world would he feel it was necessary to "point" his weapon at a young girl. I don't consider the time of night a valid reason either.

There is that spin again. Young girl indeed. :doh
Young woman is what she was. A 19 year old woman.

Now show he knew that was who was at the door.
You can't because it is most likely he didn't know.
Nor do you know if he pointed it or not.

Kobie · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
No they were not unnecessary or extraordinary dangerous.
Even if he did have his finger on the trigger and pointed it at her it was wise in the situation he believed he was in ~ someone breaking into his house.

Obviously a reasonable assumption. Most burglars pound on your door before coming in.

Excon · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Kobie said:
Obviously a reasonable assumption. Most burglars pound on your door before coming in.

:doh
Banging heard from the door would sound like a person trying to break-in through the door.

SMTA · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

joko104 said:
I totally disagree that pointing a firearm at someone shows intention to kill the person. It may likely show a willingness or potential to do so.

Don't understand classic gun handling skills do you?

If one points a gun at someone else, it ain't a sign of friendship now is it?

SMTA · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
:doh
Banging heard from the door would sound like a person trying to break-in through the door.

Wrong again.

Tapping, knocking, or banging on a door does not indicate any sign of break-in intent but an effort to get attention of those inside.

Spin again.

Kobie · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

If banging on the door was a license to shoot someone, I'd have killed about 50 UPS drivers by now.

Excon · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

SMTA said:
Wrong again.

Tapping, knocking, or banging on a door does not indicate any sign of break-in intent but an effort to get attention of those inside.

Spin again.

Wrong you are.
And quite frankly a really absurd reply.
Banging heard from the door would sound like a person trying to break-in through the door, as it obviously did.

Excon · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Kobie said:
If banging on the door was a license to shoot someone, I'd have killed about 50 UPS drivers by now.

Oy vey!
Did anybody say it was?

It was an accidental discharge.

Tettsuo · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Excon said:
Oy vey!
Did anybody say it was?

It was an accidental discharge.

So he accidentally shot what he was pointing his shotgun at? I'm sorry, 2nd degree murder is appropriate when someone is so insanely reckless that they carelessly disregard human life by pointing a weapon at someone who's not a threat.

second degree murder n. a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility. Second degree murder is different from First Degree Murder which is a premeditated, intentional killing, or results from a vicious crime such as arson, rape, or armed robbery. Exact distinctions on degree vary by state.

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

Excon · Nov 18, 2013

Re: Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges

Tettsuo said:
So he accidentally shot what he was pointing his shotgun at? I'm sorry, 2nd degree murder is appropriate when someone is so insanely reckless that they carelessly disregard human life by pointing a weapon at someone who's not a threat.

You clearly are lost.
He was resounding to a perceived threat. Therefore was not reckless.
Nor is it Murder 2, but manslaughter.

And btw, try citing Michigan law and not an inapplicable legal dictionary.

Homeowner in Renisha McBride's killing to face murder charges[W:287]

Excon

joko104

SMTA

Tsuyo Ketsu no Anna

Mason66

reinoe

DiAnna

Hooter Babe

joko104

joko104

DiAnna

Hooter Babe

joko104

opendebate

DiAnna

Hooter Babe

reinoe

danarhea

Slayer of the DP Newsbot

Excon

Excon

Kobie

Excon

SMTA

Tsuyo Ketsu no Anna

SMTA

Tsuyo Ketsu no Anna

Kobie

Excon

Excon

Tettsuo

Compassion is Strength

Excon