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Venezuela to toughen price controls, set profits

j-mac said:
And if corporations are so bad, can you tell me what would happen say in the diamond industry, if corporations suddenly disappeared from the landscape?
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People probably wouldn't waste their money on a grossly overpriced common gemstone, but no one is talking about the eradication of corporations. Corporations tend to be bad, yes, but that is what the State is for. The "free market" can't stop the formation of a multi-national price gouging virtual monopoly like DeBeers, but the State can.
 
j-mac said:
An 'open, and free market' as you describe it, would have to ensure that the people are freed from socialism no?
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Not at all... of course it depends what you think "socialism" is.
 
Essential goods should not be priced out of reach of the average citizen, assuming they have jobs.
Problem is what we deem essential, and the reduced amount of jobs available. Some of our recently lost jobs are never coming back.

Our poor in the USA live better than most of the world, and a large percentage of them do nothing to earn or deserve it. Too many think of their welfare checks as an entitlement. We are already well on the way to a United Kingdom life style.
 
DaveFagan said:
Sometimes. That's why I posted the information. That worked and at the time was probably the best solution. Authority was exerted and problem resolved. Circumstances vary. Think about how you are going to address Global Warming for your children's and grandchildren's sake. Paradoxical, don't you think?
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I will address it by explaining to them that it is nothing but a political scam being perpetrated to scare them into higher taxes and massively enormous government.
 
PeteEU said:
Hey you are the one saying they have to be "freed from socialism".. so you have to define it.
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Ok, that's rather broad, so in those terms, I guess I would say, state controlled redistribution of wealth, and abdication of property rights.
 
j-mac said:
Corporations weren't the problem, dictators, and socialist political elite classes that siphoned profit from the oil boom off the top, and kept the middle class, and poor to benefit from the economic boom that could generate through out the economy is the problem...That they refuse to address their currency supply problem, and think that governmental micro management of private industry through nationalization, and Socialistic top down control is the way forward, but instead it is a failure!
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Not much of a difference between the power of large corporations and the dictators. And those and others are only interested in their own affairs.
 
loader said:
Not much of a difference between the power of large corporations and the dictators. And those and others are only interested in their own affairs.
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True, that's human nature. However, corporations are made up of people, whereas socialist dictatorships work in their own self interests, population be damned....when you have a corporation, they have to satisfy the market or see their profit dry up, and they go out of business.
 
j-mac said:
True, that's human nature. However, corporations are made up of people, whereas socialist dictatorships work in their own self interests, population be damned....when you have a corporation, they have to satisfy the market or see their profit dry up, and they go out of business.
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I know that. I lived for 40 years under socialism. The authorities have always spoken about friendship and brotherhood between people, but the shelves of stores were empty and people were afraid to smile at each other.
 
loader said:
I know that. I lived for 40 years under socialism. The authorities have always spoken about friendship and brotherhood between people, but the shelves of stores were empty and people were afraid to smile at each other.
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I can't imagine...I have friends here that grew up in Romania under communism of the Soviets, and often tell stories of just how that was....I just have to wonder, with great people like you here that can tell exactly the path we are on, why some here choose to not listen, and lurch toward that hell anyway.
 
j-mac said:
I can't imagine...I have friends here that grew up in Romania under communism of the Soviets, and often tell stories of just how that was....I just have to wonder, with great people like you here that can tell exactly the path we are on, why some here choose to not listen, and lurch toward that hell anyway.
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I'm just afraid that socialism takes hold minds of the American people.
It is so sweet nothing to think and would not respond.
 
loader said:
I'm just afraid that socialism takes hold minds of the American people.
It is so sweet nothing to think and would not respond.
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I hear ya....Let's hope that doesn't happen, that there are still smart people out there.
 
j-mac said:
Ok, that's rather broad, so in those terms, I guess I would say, state controlled redistribution of wealth, and abdication of property rights.
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Hmm well "state controlled redistribution of wealth" includes paying police and military. Way too unspecific. Does that mean that a progressive tax system is "socialist"? How about a UHC system?

As for abdication of property rights.. yes that would be more communist than anything else, and would hinder any growth. But saying that, your "property rights" are screwed with in any type of system.. imminent domain I think it is called in the US... so claiming it is an exclusively "socialist" idea is a bit harsh to say the least.
 
PeteEU said:
Hmm well "state controlled redistribution of wealth" includes paying police and military.
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No, unless you are talking about a "Federal Policing body" like the FBI, then local police are paid through local taxation. And the Military is Constitutional...I have no problem with that.

Does that mean that a progressive tax system is "socialist"?
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Absolutely!

"In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used “to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state.” Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation, as a means of achieving “social justice,” remains ingrained in the modern liberal psyche."

Ending Tax Socialism | Cato Institute

How about a UHC system?
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Again, Hell yeah!

Not that you will actually listen to it. But here it is, as salient today as it was then...



As for abdication of property rights.. yes that would be more communist than anything else, and would hinder any growth. But saying that, your "property rights" are screwed with in any type of system.. imminent domain I think it is called in the US... so claiming it is an exclusively "socialist" idea is a bit harsh to say the least.
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Harsh? The notion that imminent domain was in this nation to only be used for constitutional purposes like the building of roads for example, and under, and only after "just compensation" for that property is limited in its use. The recent case of Kelo v New London broadened those powers of the government to take private property to redevelop, and increase tax revenue. This is a travesty...

"The Supreme Court's decision in Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005) affirmed the authority of New London, Connecticut, to take non-blighted private property by eminent domain, and then transfer it for a dollar a year to a private developer solely for the purpose of increasing municipal revenues."

Eminent domain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is socialism.
 
j-mac said:
No, unless you are talking about a "Federal Policing body" like the FBI, then local police are paid through local taxation. And the Military is Constitutional...I have no problem with that.
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This is Venezuela, not the US.

Absolutely!

"In 1848 Marx and Engels proposed that progressive taxation be used “to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state.” Although communism has failed, the idea of progressive taxation, as a means of achieving “social justice,” remains ingrained in the modern liberal psyche."

Ending Tax Socialism | Cato Institute
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Then pretty much every country on the planet is socialist and that pretty much ends the discussion does it not?

Again, Hell yeah!

Not that you will actually listen to it. But here it is, as salient today as it was then...

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So there is only 1 non socialist country in the western world then..

Harsh? The notion that imminent domain was in this nation to only be used for constitutional purposes like the building of roads for example, and under, and only after "just compensation" for that property is limited in its use. The recent case of Kelo v New London broadened those powers of the government to take private property to redevelop, and increase tax revenue. This is a travesty...

"The Supreme Court's decision in Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005) affirmed the authority of New London, Connecticut, to take non-blighted private property by eminent domain, and then transfer it for a dollar a year to a private developer solely for the purpose of increasing municipal revenues."

Eminent domain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is socialism.
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So when the Americans stole Indian land wholesale.. then that was socialism too?
 
j-mac said:
A simple question for our family here at DP....

With progressive liberals often taking this kind of hyperbolic line against Corporations, and business in general, are we to see this type of open attack against business? I think that some in America believe in this sort of thing, and would love to see this....

Your thoughts?
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The US government just did this with 16% of its economy.
 
PeteEU said:
This is Venezuela, not the US.
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To different degrees, this is happening right here in the US.

Then pretty much every country on the planet is socialist and that pretty much ends the discussion does it not?
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To some degree yes. This is the 80 year slide, or 100 year slide if you count when the 'pregressive taxation system' was adopted. Which is why we must recognize, and re affirm the Constitution as the law, and not some "living, breathing" mash of what ever some cynical politician says it is.

So there is only 1 non socialist country in the western world then..
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Like I said, to varying degrees, yes. It is that progressive tide we must reverse, and become the shinning beacon again.

So when the Americans stole Indian land wholesale.. then that was socialism too?
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Separate issue. But no, that was expansion...
 
j-mac said:
To different degrees, this is happening right here in the US.
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Which is irrelevant in a thread about Venezuela.

To some degree yes. This is the 80 year slide, or 100 year slide if you count when the 'pregressive taxation system' was adopted. Which is why we must recognize, and re affirm the Constitution as the law, and not some "living, breathing" mash of what ever some cynical politician says it is.
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So you are saying that 80-100 years ago that the average American was better off than he or she is today?

Like I said, to varying degrees, yes. It is that progressive tide we must reverse, and become the shinning beacon again.
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Shinning beacon for what? Genocide, slavery, sexism and racism?

Separate issue. But no, that was expansion...
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LOL yea right. It was conquest and genocide.
 
PeteEU said:
Which is irrelevant in a thread about Venezuela.
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Maybe you missed, or ignored this part of my opening post....

"I think that some in America believe in this sort of thing, and would love to see this...."

this is a thread about how some in America embrace the socialism of a Venezuela, and want to see it here.

So you are saying that 80-100 years ago that the average American was better off than he or she is today?
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Better off? That is a subjective term I don't think I used...Define "better off"

Shinning beacon for what? Genocide, slavery, sexism and racism? ...

LOL yea right. It was conquest and genocide.
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Oh boy....There's that Anti Americanism we so love about you Europeans...How you can be so judgmental, when you have a far longer history of crime against humanity, the hypocrisy is almost too much to bear without laughing out loud...
 
j-mac said:
Maybe you missed, or ignored this part of my opening post....

"I think that some in America believe in this sort of thing, and would love to see this...."

this is a thread about how some in America embrace the socialism of a Venezuela, and want to see it here.
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And they are in such a minority that they can barely be counted let alone actually carry out the idea. If you seriously think that the mainstream left wing wants to enforce price controls and worse across the board.. dream on. In fact it is more than often the right wing and their corporate backers that want to control the markets... Tesla and the car dealerships for example. Or banning importation of pharma.... the list goes on and on. You allow the creation of defacto corporate monopolies in geographical areas and that pushes up prices and services down.

While I in no way support what they are doing in Venezuela (but understand why), I also can clearly see that in the US it is the right wing and corporations that want to stifle the free market more than opening it up... which is the ironic part.

Better off? That is a subjective term I don't think I used...Define "better off"
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You said that "re affirm the Constitution as the law" which must mean you want to go back in time, where women were not allowed to vote, blacks were 3/4s of citizen or whatever it was and so on. The changes you are advocating or seem to advocate, would push the US back into the 1800s, pushing 100s of millions into poverty overnight. No SS, no health insurance, no emergency rooms.. and you only get protection if you pay for it or have massive guns. Is that the kind of country you want?

Oh boy....There's that Anti Americanism we so love about you Europeans...
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Has nothing to do with anti Americanism, it is a fact. The American "expansion" was conquest and genocide... and the American people have denied this forever. But let me throw you a bone... the Europeans started it, and admit it!

How you can be so judgmental, when you have a far longer history of crime against humanity, the hypocrisy is almost too much to bear without laughing out loud...
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We dont deny our past transgressions.. well most of us. That is the difference.

We are also not judgemental unless being accused of things that the accuser has done as well or worse. It is calling out a hypocrite, and when it comes to the American right wing.. that is almost 24 hour job.
 
PeteEU said:
And they are in such a minority that they can barely be counted let alone actually carry out the idea. If you seriously think that the mainstream left wing wants to enforce price controls and worse across the board.. dream on. In fact it is more than often the right wing and their corporate backers that want to control the markets... Tesla and the car dealerships for example. Or banning importation of pharma.... the list goes on and on. You allow the creation of defacto corporate monopolies in geographical areas and that pushes up prices and services down.

While I in no way support what they are doing in Venezuela (but understand why), I also can clearly see that in the US it is the right wing and corporations that want to stifle the free market more than opening it up... which is the ironic part.
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That is pure leftist, collectivist pap. To deny that price controls have not been tried in the US as a means of misguided political application is to deny that Jimmy Carter was President. It caused massive self imposed shortage, and misery.

Your rail against 'corporations' as you type away on a corporate manufactured, and marketed product, that without these 'evil' corporations would not even be affordable to you, is to truly bite the hand that feeds you. Remember this gem?

2011-10-27-OccupyCorporations1.jpg

You said that "re affirm the Constitution as the law" which must mean you want to go back in time, where women were not allowed to vote, blacks were 3/4s of citizen or whatever it was and so on. The changes you are advocating or seem to advocate, would push the US back into the 1800s, pushing 100s of millions into poverty overnight. No SS, no health insurance, no emergency rooms.. and you only get protection if you pay for it or have massive guns. Is that the kind of country you want?
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Your mis characterizations of what someone like me 'wants' is only fueled by the platitudinous, cartoonish silliness of the far left pablum that has been successfully spoon fed to you, and you lap up.

Has nothing to do with anti Americanism, it is a fact. The American "expansion" was conquest and genocide... and the American people have denied this forever. But let me throw you a bone... the Europeans started it, and admit it!
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And we admit our wrongs as well, hell, in fact we teach them in primary education. We deny nothing. But that is not good enough for the Euro hypocrite that continues to beat America over the head, as they hold out their hand for help.

We dont deny our past transgressions.. well most of us. That is the difference.

We are also not judgemental unless being accused of things that the accuser has done as well or worse. It is calling out a hypocrite, and when it comes to the American right wing.. that is almost 24 hour job.
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Oh please....:roll: Europeans would do better to address their own substantial problems with poverty, immigration, socialism, and out of control spending before they have one word to say in chastisement of a country that they all too often ask for help in solving their problems.
 
j-mac said:
That is pure leftist, collectivist pap. To deny that price controls have not been tried in the US as a means of misguided political application is to deny that Jimmy Carter was President. It caused massive self imposed shortage, and misery.
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Never denied that price controls have not been tried or even exist today in the US. There are rent controls in many major cities for example and they have been around for a very long time. Funny how those controls are never dismantled by the right when they are in power.. in fact many are put in place by the right.. /wave Bush and his pharma bill.

Your rail against 'corporations' as you type away on a corporate manufactured, and marketed product, that without these 'evil' corporations would not even be affordable to you, is to truly bite the hand that feeds you. Remember this gem?
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There is a different between a healthy competitive market where companies compete for customers , versus what happens when companies get too big and powerful. Take your cable tv/internet industry. It is dominated by the few, and they are protected by local and state laws preventing competition. Those laws were put in place by politicians who's biggest donors were .. the industry they are protecting. Even now this so called "consolidation" into bigger and bigger companies protected behind legislative barriers is happening all over the US and many of the worst places are run by the right (but not exclusively). I am not against corporations or the private sector.. not by a long shot... but I am against the companies who have gotten too big and can dominate a local geographic area or an industry. Competition is good is it not?

Your mis characterizations of what someone like me 'wants' is only fueled by the platitudinous, cartoonish silliness of the far left pablum that has been successfully spoon fed to you, and you lap up.
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Then define what you mean instead of just saying you want to go back to the constitutional basics... the basics were HORRIBLE.

And we admit our wrongs as well, hell, in fact we teach them in primary education. We deny nothing.
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LOL the hell you do. The last 100 years of history books and documentaries go out of their way to justify or gloss over what happened. Even today, if someone says it was genocide, then chances are you will be accused of being anti-American and not know what you are talking about or someone brings up the Spanish and their genocide of locals across central and South America... like that is relevant.

And the very fact you call it "expansion" and not what it was... the taking of land from the local population and forcing them out.. aka conquest.. shows how little you actually learned in school and proves what kind of history lessons were taught.. the same ones I got.

But that is not good enough for the Euro hypocrite that continues to beat America over the head, as they hold out their hand for help.
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And the circle of denial is complete. Cant win the debate, then attack attack attack and call people names.

Oh please....:roll: Europeans would do better to address their own substantial problems with poverty, immigration, socialism, and out of control spending before they have one word to say in chastisement of a country that they all too often ask for help in solving their problems.
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Seriously? Ever heard of the saying about living in a glass house?

And this has turned into another US vs Euro cluster**** .. but I suspect that was your plan all along.
 
j-mac said:
A simple question for our family here at DP....

With progressive liberals often taking this kind of hyperbolic line against Corporations, and business in general, are we to see this type of open attack against business? I think that some in America believe in this sort of thing, and would love to see this....

Your thoughts?
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The irony of you writing this, equating basically any and all U.S. liberals to Venezuela's political actions, while calling these liberals hyperbolic... well it's beyond rich.
 
j-mac said:
Oh yeah, no doubt...How do you think the anti corporatism folks in here think about this...I mean there is a strong support for this type of thing right here in America...Everything from anti Walmart, oil companies, banks, to health insurance....This is what some of our progressive posting family right here think is the solution.
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I haven't seen a single poster here advocate for price controls. Keep on building that strawman, though, if it helps you sleep better.
 
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