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Thread: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Crosscheck View Post
    A few years back I witness my neighbor's house catch of fire.

    Started with the kitchen curtain catching on fire from kitchen appliance. I was in my backyard when I first saw the smoke and thought it was a barbecue and odd because it was only 9 AM. The neighbor ran over to my house for help and I thought "Yeah, let me grab their garden hose and put this out now". My wife called 911 and I sprinted over to their house.
    By the time I got around the side of the house to reach the kitchen window the exterior wall of the house had burst into flames. This was beyond garden hose rescue. I remember looking at the neighbor's car parked in the driveway along the side of the house and the mirror was melting off.
    The heat is downright unbelievable in such a short period of time. It would still be a few minutes for the police and fire dept got there. By the time that fire truck pulled up that house was engulfed.

    I truly think in the case of this thread that child was unfortunately already dead when they tasered the dad.
    I think so to, but still think it was up to the father to decide on the risk to take.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Stun guns should be classified legally as lethal weapons to stop this crap.

    How many times did they stun him? And still more after handcuffed? And as the article says it burned him - as that is what electrocuting someone does. It can be so extreme in one instance the police literally burned off a man's genitals with deep 3rd degree burns.

    I see NO justification whatsoever for stunning him - and then the absurd statement that he was not charged with a crime as if they gave him a break.

    There was no justification for police to stun him to "save him from himself." This was not a suicide attempt. It's not the job of police to decide what risks a person is willing to take in general, let alone to save his son.

    Maybe the police should stun all people who are trying to mountain climbing, bungee jumping, swimming or surfing in waters known for sharks and anything else that might be dangerous to "save those people from themselves."

    They do go TOO FAR in terms of fire in general. When our warehouse burned up, while they were great in almost every way, they also too the position that we were banned from the building until they said otherwise - even after the fire put out and also then saying they had to go "investigate" the building before allowing us in - no search warrant. We didn't object, but at one point is was annoying and there was damage that otherwise would not have happened as a result.

    Declaring stun guns to be lethal weapons would at least stop these instances where police stun people and just keep stunning and stunning and stunning and stunning the person - so very common even after handcuffed. There is almost no instance where I would not rule on a civil case or a criminal case against stunning someone who is handcuffed.

    And, as the story says, the man wasn't burned by the fire trying to save his son. He was burned by the police to prevent him from doing so.

    Can a citizen stun a police officer to "save him from himself" if s/he believes the police officer is "endangering himself?"
    First of all, he was trying to enter the house and was tasered by two different police officers because he was endangering himself and any possible rescue efforts. The burns were from trying to enter the house, not being tasered. And there has been no confirmation on whether he was tasered or not after being handcuffed, but if he was still being combative with the police after being cuffed, then he needed to be stopped.

    Second, anything has a potential for being lethal. Tasers are a low potential. Lethal weapons are those very likely to cause death, such as guns, particularly given that cops are trained to aim for the torso, a pretty lethal place to hit with a bullet (but also the best place to stop a person and a large target area).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Considering the likely amount of cops on the scene (and if you get confrontational, they are likely to request assistance) and what would likely be you in an emotional state, I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't survive such a situation or at least wouldn't be conscious at the end of it.

    But that would very likely be a good reason why the cops used a tazer on the guy in the story. Kinda hard to harm a cop after you've been tazed. You all are acting like it is your right to put others in harms way for a situation that you simply cannot know. The guy in this case had no way of knowing what condition his son was in nor if he really would have been any help to him. And he had no way to know that his trying to "save" his son wouldn't have actually put him in more danger. The same could easily be true for you given such a situation. Would you want to put your child in more danger just because of your pride in insisting that you might be able to save him? Because making the first responders respond to you rather than concentrating on saving your child, putting out the fire, makes it less likely that the child will be saved, if he/she could be.
    If there were that "many cops on the scene" and since cops don't fight fires, there was absolutely NO reason to taser that man. None. Even if they had to stop him (they had NO right to), that did not give reason to taser him. Were they the whimpiest ass cops in the world?

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Crosscheck View Post
    What if they just stood back and let the dad rush into the burning inferno. After a minute he didn't come back out and then the wife ran into it totally unrestrained. After a couple minutes she doesn't exit and other family members have arrived at the fire. A grandfather hobbles up to the front door and enters followed by an uncle. In your eyes the firemen and police just stand back and watch one after another enter the inferno.

    There is this trend to paintbrush all groups of people and policemen and firemen have often been brushed less respectifully. But the few firemen I know would all humanly possible try to save a 3 yr olds life. If you don't think that was gut wrenching for them to know child was in that fire and unable to save it then you haven't spent time with firemen.

    The time to save that child was the first 5 minutes of that fire. That was the window of time in which the child could have been possibly rescued.
    This is a great point.

    This is why in the shipyard, whether sailor or civilian, we are taught you never go into a tank or enclosed space to "save" someone who is unconscious because you end up becoming the next one unconscious. Prior to such rules, they actually found lines/piles of guys in such situations because each tried to go into save their buddies and didn't figure out that the gases had overcome them and it would do the same to them. Now instead of one person to save (potentially), there are several.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    If there were that "many cops on the scene" and since cops don't fight fires, there was absolutely NO reason to taser that man. None. Even if they had to stop him (they had NO right to), that did not give reason to taser him. Were they the whimpiest ass cops in the world?
    They tried to stop him, he became combative and got away from them. How many cops do you think were on the scene? I only know of two that tasered him. In such a situation, they would definitely be trying not to hurt the guy, and physical restraints can hurt him when he is combative, not to mention hurting the officers (potentially). They had every reason to stop him and use a taser to do it. He was interfering in combating the fire and potentially saving his son by trying to do it himself.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    What about mountain climbing in an area where it is prohibited because it is known to cause fatalities? I'm guessing authorities would have some authority to intervene.

    As I said before - I'm not making a judgement. This is a heartbreaking story and the stun-gun use seems to have gone from precautionary to malicious which, regrettably, is common police behavior.

    I'll bet the police will not be found at fault in any way. If I'm wrong....I'll be pleased.
    I'm really not a fan of that type of regulation. If someone wishes to test their skills that is their business provided they accept the fact that someone may not come rescue them if they get in trouble.

    That said there is at least some legal basis for that type of regulation - access to public lands can be restricted. What's the basis for denying a man access to his own home other than some government official arbitrarily deciding that it was too risky.

    I agree. Taser ing the man was probably uncalled for. Could've killed him just as easily as the fire could have.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    (Fire was just after midnight)

    "Riley Rieser was asleep in a bedroom in the home while the boy’s mother, Catherine Miller, and stepfather, Ryan Miller, had fallen asleep watching television in a room in the rear of the home. The fire was reported after Catherine Miller was awakened by smoke. Attempts to reach Riley were unsuccessful as fire and smoke blocked the path to the boy’s room as the blaze engulfed the rear of the home.
    The parents were able to reach a rear door and exit the home. Once outside, Ryan Miller kicked in the front door and attempted to make entry to rescue his stepson, officials reported. A Louisiana police officer had to restrain Miller and eventually used a taser gun to subdue him.
    Riley Rieser was eventually located near the doorway to the bedroom by the front living room and transported by ambulance to the hospital."


    It is very possible the step father COULD have saved that child - although possibly at the cost of his own life or massive 3rd degree burns. Personally, I think a parent has a DUTY to put their life on the line even to TRY to save their child.

    Clearly, the little boy had woken up. Had gotten out of bed, was trying to get out, and was found laying on the floor - furthest from the heat, smoke and carbon monoxide. From the fire at our warehouse, it was amazing how much the massive heat had been at the top, with NO damage at actual floor level. With that little boy laying on the floor near the living room (which is usually at the front lower level of the house) means it is NOT certain he could not have been saved.

    We also know this was NOT a professional fire department, possibly volunteer, since it took them EIGHT HOURS to put out the fire. Moreover, professional fire fighters have the clothing and gear to essentially going into a wall of flames at least for a few minutes.

    So THIS is what seems to have happened. The little boy was unconscious on the floor not that far from the front door. The fire department didn't have the equipment to safely go into a burning building - where "safety" means no risk whatsoever of injury. So they wouldn't go in. The police certainly wouldn't go in.

    And the police decided that THEY had the authority to decide whether or not the step father could try to rescue the boy - they themselves unwilling to do so, and decided that it was NOT the step-father's decision, but their own, so tasered him, cuffed him and then kept tasering him after cuffed to shut him up. Then, I suppose, proved they and the fire department were correct that the boy couldnt' be rescued because he wasn't?

    I think it is possible the step father could have saved that boy, but it would have cost him his life for horrific burns - that the boy may not have suffered at all being down on the floor and then curled in the step-father's arms.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    I'm really not a fan of that type of regulation. If someone wishes to test their skills that is their business provided they accept the fact that someone may not come rescue them if they get in trouble.

    That said there is at least some legal basis for that type of regulation - access to public lands can be restricted. What's the basis for denying a man access to his own home other than some government official arbitrarily deciding that it was too risky.

    I agree. Taser ing the man was probably uncalled for. Could've killed him just as easily as the fire could have.
    Experience tells us that it was too risky and that his attempt could cause more problems for those who are actually trained to go in and fight the fires and save people.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    (Fire was just after midnight)

    "Riley Rieser was asleep in a bedroom in the home while the boy’s mother, Catherine Miller, and stepfather, Ryan Miller, had fallen asleep watching television in a room in the rear of the home. The fire was reported after Catherine Miller was awakened by smoke. Attempts to reach Riley were unsuccessful as fire and smoke blocked the path to the boy’s room as the blaze engulfed the rear of the home.
    The parents were able to reach a rear door and exit the home. Once outside, Ryan Miller kicked in the front door and attempted to make entry to rescue his stepson, officials reported. A Louisiana police officer had to restrain Miller and eventually used a taser gun to subdue him.
    Riley Rieser was eventually located near the doorway to the bedroom by the front living room and transported by ambulance to the hospital."


    It is very possible the step father COULD have saved that child - although possibly at the cost of his own life or massive 3rd degree burns. Personally, I think a parent has a DUTY to put their life on the line even to TRY to save their child.

    Clearly, the little boy had woken up. Had gotten out of bed, was trying to get out, and was found laying on the floor - furthest from the heat, smoke and carbon monoxide. From the fire at our warehouse, it was amazing how much the massive heat had been at the top, with NO damage at actual floor level. With that little boy laying on the floor near the living room (which is usually at the front lower level of the house) means it is NOT certain he could not have been saved.

    We also know this was NOT a professional fire department, possibly volunteer, since it took them EIGHT HOURS to put out the fire. Moreover, professional fire fighters have the clothing and gear to essentially going into a wall of flames at least for a few minutes.

    So THIS is what seems to have happened. The little boy was unconscious on the floor not that far from the front door. The fire department didn't have the equipment to safely go into a burning building - where "safety" means no risk whatsoever of injury. So they wouldn't go in. The police certainly wouldn't go in.

    And the police decided that THEY had the authority to decide whether or not the step father could try to rescue the boy - they themselves unwilling to do so, and decided that it was NOT the step-father's decision, but their own, so tasered him, cuffed him and then kept tasering him after cuffed to shut him up. Then, I suppose, proved they and the fire department were correct that the boy couldnt' be rescued because he wasn't?

    I think it is possible the step father could have saved that boy, but it would have cost him his life for horrific burns - that the boy may not have suffered at all being down on the floor and then curled in the step-father's arms.
    It is also very possible that the father could have stepped on his son (since he would not have been able to see him), possibly even tripped over him, and both of them could have perished needlessly. In fact, had the child been saveable by the firefighters, stepping on him or spreading fire to him would have possibly been the tipping point between saving him and both of them becoming victims of the fire.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    You are right in that people won't agree. You are not right that it isn't the police officers job to make that call. They do that with suicidal people all the time. The law specifically gives them the right to act in situations like that.
    Suicide requires an intention to end ones life. Performing an act that might well lead to ones death is not necessarily suicide.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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