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Thread: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Probably because there is no point in it being illegal.

    But why are jumpers talked down? What right do the authorities have to interfere?

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    No there isn't a bad guy, but there is a wrong guy and that's the police in this situation. They made the wrong call.
    That's emotional twaddle. I understand it, but it is emotional twaddle nonetheless. You think the family would have been better off burying the child and the father?

    I get it. I'm a father and I would have done anything I could to try to save my child. I'd be pissed if I was the father. But today he is alive because that officer prevented him from making a suicidal rescue attempt.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    That's emotional twaddle. I understand it, but it is emotional twaddle nonetheless. You think the family would have been better off burying the child and the father?

    I get it. I'm a father and I would have done anything I could to try to save my child. I'd be pissed if I was the father. But today he is alive because that officer prevented him from making a suicidal rescue attempt.
    Its not the officers place to make that decision for him. That is point people don't get and probably wont.
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    from what I read, the fire started in a downstairs bedroom. by the time the firefighters and cops arrived, flames were coming from the upstairs windows (IOW the house was full engulfed). For a typical house fire, temperatures can reach 1100 degrees F in a matter of minutes and even rooms that are not on fire can reach temps over 300 degrees.

    It took fire crews 8 hours to put the fire out.

    A few years back I witness my neighbor's house catch of fire.

    Started with the kitchen curtain catching on fire from kitchen appliance. I was in my backyard when I first saw the smoke and thought it was a barbecue and odd because it was only 9 AM. The neighbor ran over to my house for help and I thought "Yeah, let me grab their garden hose and put this out now". My wife called 911 and I sprinted over to their house.
    By the time I got around the side of the house to reach the kitchen window the exterior wall of the house had burst into flames. This was beyond garden hose rescue. I remember looking at the neighbor's car parked in the driveway along the side of the house and the mirror was melting off.
    The heat is downright unbelievable in such a short period of time. It would still be a few minutes for the police and fire dept got there. By the time that fire truck pulled up that house was engulfed.

    I truly think in the case of this thread that child was unfortunately already dead when they tasered the dad.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Its not the officers place to make that decision for him. That is point people don't get and probably wont.
    You are right in that people won't agree. You are not right that it isn't the police officers job to make that call. They do that with suicidal people all the time. The law specifically gives them the right to act in situations like that.
    Last edited by VanceMack; 11-09-13 at 10:31 AM.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    You are right in that people won't agree. You are not right that it isn't the police officers job to make that call. They do that with suicidal people all the time. The law specifically gives them the right to act in situations like that.
    Your talking to someone who routinely breaks the law and only follows it as convenience. The law doesn't mean crap to me. That's neither here nor there. We wont agree on this ever. I sincerely hope if any officer that steps in my way rethinks their position if they want to go home, there are certain things you just don't get in the way of. Good damn thing I have fire suppression equipment installed at my residence. You don't agree of course but you have your opinion I have mine.
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    They weren't trying to save the child because they deemed they couldn't. They don't HAVE to go after me it THEIR choice whether or not to do so, I wont and don't expect them to. Its MY RIGHT to make the call not your not theirs and that is the point you don't get, and apparently never will. I don't give a goddamn about the peoples perception of the police, and to be blunt neither should the police. If they are too busy worrying about the perception of themselves they are in the wrong ****ing field.
    And both you and Red are wrong. You are putting others at risk, including very likely the person you are trying to save.

    And why in most cases would you be doing this? Maybe pride, maybe just foolishness, maybe just stupidity. But in reality you are likely to do more harm than good in a situation similar to the one described by the OP. You don't get it because you want to believe that your actions would be better than nothing. Just because neither of you can understand that the likelihood of that being true isn't very high at all, doesn't mean you are right.

    And, no, you do not have an absolute right to put yourself (and others) at more risk for your personal feelings, despite your beliefs on this. The police and other emergency personnel stop people from jumping off bridges, shooting themselves, running into burning houses/buildings, or trying other things that put them and/or others in danger all the time because that is part of their job, no matter those people's personal feelings about their right to do those things.

    You know what. Neither of you understand that I understand those feelings that would make you say that you would go in after your children despite the police or other personnel there. Both my husband and I have discussed this and feel that either of us would try to go in to save our children as well. However, unlike you and Red, we would also understand other, clearer heads stopping us afterward (hopefully before we became a burden to the efforts) because in that circumstance people are not thinking correctly and that does lead to putting others in danger, including those who might be rescued.
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    No there isn't a bad guy, but there is a wrong guy and that's the police in this situation. They made the wrong call.
    No they weren't wrong.

    What if the man would have run in and stepped on his son because he couldn't see anything through the smoke and the son was trying to get out so wasn't on his bed (I have no idea where he was in fact but that would probably be where the father looked for him)? Firefighters have equipment to help them see through fires, including thermal imaging cameras and lights that allow them to see much better through smoke than the father could have ever hoped to see (especially since the fire happened at night, in the dark to begin with). What if the father would have flared the fire up by bursting open the door (something the firefighters would have likely been more cautious about doing)? What if the father would have knocked some piece of furniture over on his way in causing an obstruction between him and the son or between them and getting out? There are so many ways that an untrained person running into a fire could cause so many more issues for those who are trained to actually do the rescuing. And those issues caused by the untrained loved one could mean the difference between the firefighters being able to rescue the other person and instead having to rescue the "hero".
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Stun guns should be classified legally as lethal weapons to stop this crap.

    How many times did they stun him? And still more after handcuffed? And as the article says it burned him - as that is what electrocuting someone does. It can be so extreme in one instance the police literally burned off a man's genitals with deep 3rd degree burns.

    I see NO justification whatsoever for stunning him - and then the absurd statement that he was not charged with a crime as if they gave him a break.

    There was no justification for police to stun him to "save him from himself." This was not a suicide attempt. It's not the job of police to decide what risks a person is willing to take in general, let alone to save his son.

    Maybe the police should stun all people who are trying to mountain climbing, bungee jumping, swimming or surfing in waters known for sharks and anything else that might be dangerous to "save those people from themselves."

    They do go TOO FAR in terms of fire in general. When our warehouse burned up, while they were great in almost every way, they also too the position that we were banned from the building until they said otherwise - even after the fire put out and also then saying they had to go "investigate" the building before allowing us in - no search warrant. We didn't object, but at one point is was annoying and there was damage that otherwise would not have happened as a result.

    Declaring stun guns to be lethal weapons would at least stop these instances where police stun people and just keep stunning and stunning and stunning and stunning the person - so very common even after handcuffed. There is almost no instance where I would not rule on a civil case or a criminal case against stunning someone who is handcuffed.

    And, as the story says, the man wasn't burned by the fire trying to save his son. He was burned by the police to prevent him from doing so.

    Can a citizen stun a police officer to "save him from himself" if s/he believes the police officer is "endangering himself?"

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAkston View Post
    You're wasting your time if you're trying to convince me that the police officer was in the right. It is not the police officer's job to save me, even if it's "from myself" as you are claiming. A cop that comes between me and trying to save my child is a dead cop. It's just that simple.

    What if they just stood back and let the dad rush into the burning inferno. After a minute he didn't come back out and then the wife ran into it totally unrestrained. After a couple minutes she doesn't exit and other family members have arrived at the fire. A grandfather hobbles up to the front door and enters followed by an uncle. In your eyes the firemen and police just stand back and watch one after another enter the inferno.

    There is this trend to paintbrush all groups of people and policemen and firemen have often been brushed less respectifully. But the few firemen I know would all humanly possible try to save a 3 yr olds life. If you don't think that was gut wrenching for them to know child was in that fire and unable to save it then you haven't spent time with firemen.

    The time to save that child was the first 5 minutes of that fire. That was the window of time in which the child could have been possibly rescued.

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