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Thread: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It doesn't matter if you would have or not, others might have. And no first responder, no police officer (as far as we know) is able to read people so well that they would know whether or not it would happen. And they couldn't possibly know if your kin wouldn't hold them responsible financially for running into a burning house.
    Its the mans life, property, and kin. The police have absolutely NO business interfering at ALL. All the police had to say is if he goes he's on his own. That's it. I for one, very much disagree with your position on this case.
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Its the mans life, property, and kin. The police have absolutely NO business interfering at ALL. All the police had to say is if he goes he's on his own. That's it. I for one, very much disagree with your position on this case.
    Yes they do. That is part of being an emergency responder. Whether people agree or not, the police and the firemen are there to help and save people, and sometimes that means saving people from themselves. Running into a burning house that firefighters cannot even go into because of the heat is a foolish and extremely dangerous thing to do and first responders cannot allow people to do it just because they are emotionally unable to know how foolish the action would be.

    It isn't that simple. They cannot simply say "he is on his own" because everyone and their brother would be questioning why the police or the emergency personnel were allowing that emotionally distraught man to make such a decision.
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yes they do. That is part of being an emergency responder. Whether people agree or not, the police and the firemen are there to help and save people, and sometimes that means saving people from themselves. Running into a burning house that firefighters cannot even go into because of the heat is a foolish and extremely dangerous thing to do and first responders cannot allow people to do it just because they are emotionally unable to know how foolish the action would be.

    It isn't that simple. They cannot simply say "he is on his own" because everyone and their brother would be questioning why the police or the emergency personnel were allowing that emotionally distraught man to make such a decision.
    Actually it is that simple. The man may be emotionally distraught, but it is inconsequential because it is the mans decision and his alone. The police do not have a right to interfere. No authority whatsoever. If it was my house and my children, what those officers did would be tantamount to starting a shooting war with me regardless of their intentions. So what if people question if the department let the man in, its the mans house and child and his natural sovereign right to do as he see fit regardless what the authorities think. If he wishes to sacrifice his life in vain foolhardy attempt to save his child, who are you or I to tell him no. They have NO business whatsoever standing in that mans way. NONE. I remain most adamant about that and find what they did egregious in the extreme.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Actually it is that simple. The man may be emotionally distraught, but it is inconsequential because it is the mans decision and his alone. The police do not have a right to interfere. No authority whatsoever. If it was my house and my children, what those officers did would be tantamount to starting a shooting war with me regardless of their intentions. So what if people question if the department let the man in, its the mans house and child and his natural sovereign right to do as he see fit regardless what the authorities think. If he wishes to sacrifice his life in vain foolhardy attempt to save his child, who are you or I to tell him no. They have NO business whatsoever standing in that mans way. NONE. I remain most adamant about that and find what they did egregious in the extreme.
    It is very consequential to the issue. Emotional moments cause us to do rash things. You should not allow people to do things that would harm them due to their emotional state, which is a rather temporary emotional state.

    We are the people who live with him. We are people in the society that he has chosen to live in and that is how our society views such things. You can disagree but the majority of people would much rather be saved from doing something foolish if in the right emotional state and that is how our first responders need to treat people, as if they would rather live than foolishly attempt something that won't in all likelihood achieve that attempt (saving a life in this case) and would make things worse by getting themselves killed.

    How would his wife feel if she lost both her son and her husband and come to find out her husband died 5 feet in the door not even close to where the son is? She would have just lost both of them for nothing. If he thought rationally about it, I doubt that would be what he would really want.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by sookster View Post
    I will say this again.

    There are states that are making it illegal to hire new police recruits with high IQs.

    Police are ****ing stupid. They are drunk with their power and they don't even have college degrees.
    Don't say it again until you post a credible link that proves your theory. I will say, however, that I'd be surprised if IQ weren't taken into account when hiring for many positions -- not just police officers. However. You are making it sound as though they are being dumbed down. I am positive that's not the case.

    Your disdain for coppers is duly noted.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAkston View Post
    Absolutely not. Any decent parent would risk their life to save that of their child. I would not have held the police accountable if they let him go in, not one little bit.
    Parents can lie, steal, maim and kill for their children. That doesn't make it right. The very fact that parents will do pretty much anything to try to protect their children is the reason calmer minds sometimes need to overrule them.

    We will have to agree to differ on our prediction of your reaction in the hypothetical situation of an article highlighting how police officers stood aside as a man in his pyjamas ran in to his death in a burring building fire-fighters had already deemed inaccessible. I hope you can at least agree that there would be, in general, just as much condemnation aimed at the police in that situation as there is here now.
    Last edited by HonestJoe; 11-08-13 at 12:19 PM.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It is very consequential to the issue. Emotional moments cause us to do rash things. You should not allow people to do things that would harm them due to their emotional state, which is a rather temporary emotional state.

    We are the people who live with him. We are people in the society that he has chosen to live in and that is how our society views such things. You can disagree but the majority of people would much rather be saved from doing something foolish if in the right emotional state and that is how our first responders need to treat people, as if they would rather live than foolishly attempt something that won't in all likelihood achieve that attempt (saving a life in this case) and would make things worse by getting themselves killed.

    How would his wife feel if she lost both her son and her husband and come to find out her husband died 5 feet in the door not even close to where the son is? She would have just lost both of them for nothing. If he thought rationally about it, I doubt that would be what he would really want.
    Its not their decision to make. Never has been, and for me never will be. I don't live with the man, you don't live with man. Society doesn't live with that man. Its not your or mines or societies, place or call to make these kind of decisions for others. They are their decisions ALONE. You or I or society don't live with the consequences, they however do. It is such a profound lack of respect to deny someone the decision to attempt a futile effort to save their loved ones. I will NEVER abrogate that kind of decision to someone else, and I would EXPECT my decision to be respected irregardless the potential harmful outcome to my person.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Its not their decision to make. Never has been, and for me never will be. I don't live with the man, you don't live with man. Society doesn't live with that man. Its not your or mines or societies, place or call to make these kind of decisions for others. They are their decisions ALONE. You or I or society don't live with the consequences, they however do. It is such a profound lack of respect to deny someone the decision to attempt a futile effort to save their loved ones. I will NEVER abrogate that kind of decision to someone else, and I would EXPECT my decision to be respected irregardless the potential harmful outcome to my person.
    Yes it is. That is what comes from living in a society. Just as police/first responders will attempt to stop someone from attempting suicide if they know of a likely attempt (jumper, caller, whatever). Even if the person is simply going to jump off a bridge. In fact, drivers would be better off if the guy was allowed to jump, yet we stop them because it is likely that the feelings that put them up there to jump are temporary and despite it being their life, we still try to save them. It is the right thing to do. It is right to stop someone from doing something stupid that they wouldn't do if they could think more rationally about it (opinion, sure, but still something felt that is right by much of society).

    And it isn't just you that is affected by the decision though. Others are too. What if someone sees you run in and wants to save you? Kinda like the don't go check on someone who is passed out in a tank. You end up with several people dead because each of them were foolishly trying to save someone without knowing what the situation was.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yes it is. That is what comes from living in a society. Just as police/first responders will attempt to stop someone from attempting suicide if they know of a likely attempt (jumper, caller, whatever). Even if the person is simply going to jump off a bridge. In fact, drivers would be better off if the guy was allowed to jump, yet we stop them because it is likely that the feelings that put them up there to jump are temporary and despite it being their life, we still try to save them. It is the right thing to do. It is right to stop someone from doing something stupid that they wouldn't do if they could think more rationally about it (opinion, sure, but still something felt that is right by much of society).

    And it isn't just you that is affected by the decision though. Others are too. What if someone sees you run in and wants to save you? Kinda like the don't go check on someone who is passed out in a tank. You end up with several people dead because each of them were foolishly trying to save someone without knowing what the situation was.
    We are diametrically opposed, you see it your way, I see it mine. You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong. All I know is this, if I was stopped like that at my home from attempting to save a family member from a fire or other catastrophe by the police or whatever other emergency service was there, that would be the start of a shooting war. I would consider the act unforgivable and would seek blood as payment. The way I see it you don't step in my way in my attempt however futile to save a family member.
    Its one thing if the responders say "Hey think about what you are doing, think about the rest of your family.", its an entirely other thing to physically stop them. There's no way in hell you can get me to agree otherwise.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    We are diametrically opposed, you see it your way, I see it mine. You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong. All I know is this, if I was stopped like that at my home from attempting to save a family member from a fire or other catastrophe by the police or whatever other emergency service was there, that would be the start of a shooting war. I would consider the act unforgivable and would seek blood as payment. The way I see it you don't step in my way in my attempt however futile to save a family member.
    Its one thing if the responders say "Hey think about what you are doing, think about the rest of your family.", its an entirely other thing to physically stop them. There's no way in hell you can get me to agree otherwise.
    And you would be in big trouble, likely dead if necessary but definitely going to see professional mental help and also likely facing charges if you actually harmed someone, if you did something so irrational to people trying to save your life. Whether you agree with the policies or laws or not, the police and other first responders must try to save you, even from yourself and foolish decisions.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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