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Thread: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

  1. #261
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Maybe you should reread some of the story. First of all, the firemen were onscene. They said that it was too hot, at that time, to go inside the house even in their gear. Second, I have seen reports that say that one of the police officers (of the two) that tazed the guy might have actually been a firefighter himself (it sounded like they have some that work as LEOs). But even if this weren't the case, police officers still work with firefighters and are trained to at least recognize that it is dangerous for a civilian to try to enter a burning house. It isn't that hard to figure out. It is part of their job to keep people from doing stuff like this.

    The following should be enough to tell anyone that the father should not have been allowed in there:

    "Jenne said a firefighter tried save Riley, but the house was too hot to enter."

    Family outraged after police use stun gun on stepdad trying to save 3-year-old son from fire - CBS News
    I read the story and I understand fire scenes better than you... that being said they did what they did and it was responsible, just not moral. I would be outraged if they had tried to stop me as well. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think anybody is saying that they should have stepped aside and let him run in, just that they are outraged that they stopped him. If that sounds like a paradox then that is fine too.

    Everyone isn't the same. I would be crushed if my husband was lost to the fire as well. It would be very conflicting emotionally. There would be a little pride, but that would most likely be greatly overshadowed by the grief for losing my husband as well as my son. And I don't see many women being upset with their husbands for not going into the fire if it was too hot for firefighters. In fact, any woman who was upset/longterm blaming their husband/boyfriend, is really pretty unstable if she can't understand that her husband would have most likely died going into an inferno to attempt, foolishly, to save their child. And it would be really wrong to blame him for not being able to get passed the cops and/or firemen to save the child.
    Nobody would blame him for not going in...
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  2. #262
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I read the story and I understand fire scenes better than you... that being said they did what they did and it was responsible, just not moral. I would be outraged if they had tried to stop me as well. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think anybody is saying that they should have stepped aside and let him run in, just that they are outraged that they stopped him. If that sounds like a paradox then that is fine too.
    No. Morals are individual beliefs about right or wrong. It was absolutely moral for the police to stop the man from giving up his life for the almost nil possibility of saving his son and in fact very likely putting his son in more danger from that given, unknowable point in time of what the outcome would be. In all likelihood, his actions would more likely put his son in more danger than they would work to save the child, despite his efforts. Believing otherwise is simply ignoring many facts about the situation and how fires and fire rescues work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Nobody would blame him for not going in...
    I don't agree.

    First we have people on this board, in this thread, who have practically swore that any parent that didn't try to go in was basically a failure of a parent. I would call that "blaming" him for not going in. Heck, I think someone said that such parents (those that wouldn't try to enter the fire) were "scum" or something like that.

    Second, I in fact know of a case in the past where a father's appearance of not being willing to go in (according to witnesses after the fact at least, despite statements to the contrary during the event) actually went into helping to get him convicted for arson (although a bunch of junk fire science was the main issue), in a case where they have basically proven that it was actually most likely that the fire was an accident. And the reason this belief was even possible to work toward such a conviction is because of that stubborn belief that parents should try to enter into a fire despite better judgement (heck, they guy actually did try to get back in, with burns to prove it).

    Cameron Todd Willingham, Texas, and the death penalty : The New Yorker

    Cameron Todd Willingham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    According to their sworn statements, both Brandice Barbee and Diane Barbee urged Willingham to return into the house to rescue his children, as according to Brandice Barbee, "all I could see was smoke".[15] According to Brandice, he refused, and went to move his car away from the fire before returning to sit on a nearby lawn "not once attempting to go inside to rescue his children". Once the fire had reached flashover and the fire department arrived, Willingham became far more agitated, to the point of being restrained by emergency services.
    So yes, there would be people trying to blame this guy as well for not trying to get to his child (unfortunately) and that is due to this messed up belief that people should go into a burning building and be a hero. I'm not actually one of those. I understand both and more types of reactions to such circumstances in that people are different. They react differently to the circumstances they are given, particularly when it comes to something like fire. But that doesn't mean that if we have emergency responders on scene (such as police/firefighters) that they shouldn't maintain a cooler head and work to minimize the casualties, because that is what they are trained to do and it makes their job easier in rescuing any person who was truly trapped inside if they are not also having to try to rescue would-be heroes who are trying to help but just not really in a position to do so.
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  3. #263
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. Morals are individual beliefs about right or wrong. It was absolutely moral for the police to stop the man from giving up his life for the almost nil possibility of saving his son and in fact very likely putting his son in more danger from that given, unknowable point in time of what the outcome would be. In all likelihood, his actions would more likely put his son in more danger than they would work to save the child, despite his efforts. Believing otherwise is simply ignoring many facts about the situation and how fires and fire rescues work.



    I don't agree.

    First we have people on this board, in this thread, who have practically swore that any parent that didn't try to go in was basically a failure of a parent. I would call that "blaming" him for not going in. Heck, I think someone said that such parents (those that wouldn't try to enter the fire) were "scum" or something like that.

    Second, I in fact know of a case in the past where a father's appearance of not being willing to go in (according to witnesses after the fact at least, despite statements to the contrary during the event) actually went into helping to get him convicted for arson (although a bunch of junk fire science was the main issue), in a case where they have basically proven that it was actually most likely that the fire was an accident. And the reason this belief was even possible to work toward such a conviction is because of that stubborn belief that parents should try to enter into a fire despite better judgement (heck, they guy actually did try to get back in, with burns to prove it).

    Cameron Todd Willingham, Texas, and the death penalty : The New Yorker

    Cameron Todd Willingham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    So yes, there would be people trying to blame this guy as well for not trying to get to his child (unfortunately) and that is due to this messed up belief that people should go into a burning building and be a hero. I'm not actually one of those. I understand both and more types of reactions to such circumstances in that people are different. They react differently to the circumstances they are given, particularly when it comes to something like fire. But that doesn't mean that if we have emergency responders on scene (such as police/firefighters) that they shouldn't maintain a cooler head and work to minimize the casualties, because that is what they are trained to do and it makes their job easier in rescuing any person who was truly trapped inside if they are not also having to try to rescue would-be heroes who are trying to help but just not really in a position to do so.

    As to those that would blame him for NOT going in... I missed those posts and don't agree. One has to be there AND be rational. I was also thinking more along the lines of my situation where my daughter was swept out to sea by a small rogue wave. I went in and got her, though it was difficult. My other daughter luckily was swept up the beach and ended up being ok. That really isn't the same so I stopped equating the two. The more I think about this individual case I think that the cop did the right thing. If it wasn't so clear cut though I wouldn't agree.
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    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  4. #264
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    As to those that would blame him for NOT going in... I missed those posts and don't agree. One has to be there AND be rational. I was also thinking more along the lines of my situation where my daughter was swept out to sea by a small rogue wave. I went in and got her, though it was difficult. My other daughter luckily was swept up the beach and ended up being ok. That really isn't the same so I stopped equating the two. The more I think about this individual case I think that the cop did the right thing. If it wasn't so clear cut though I wouldn't agree.
    I think it comes down to circumstances. I'm not saying that it is always wrong (I don't actually think it is wrong morally for anyone to attempt to save a loved one if their intention is purely that, which especially in this I believe it was) or even a bad idea to run into a house on fire to save someone. I just think that there is a line between when such a decision is foolish vice brave, based on many factors, including a few being who else is on scene, how bad the fire actually is, what the person is wearing, how much experience the person has, how long the fire has been burning. and many, many more. I love hero stories, they warm my heart, especially when it happens in real life. But I don't think this one had a very good chance at all of being a hero story, but rather a larger tragedy, had those police not stopped that man from entering that house.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  5. #265
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    No. The fire department (chief) is in charge and the police act in support capacity... mainly border security of the scene, witness control, etc. The chief is essentially a dictator in that situation.



    Out of how many what?

    ...and don't go trying to be a pop-psychologist off of here say. She was proud that he attempted to save others but sad that he died. I have saved multiple people's lives though only once was my own life in jeopardy. I went for it anyway. The kid is alive because I reacted.



    In a sue happy society people would try to blame him just as they are trying to blame him for stopping the guy. In a true universal health care and non-sue happy society that doesn't enter into the equation.
    This is a very sue happy society healthcare has nothing to do with it since this is not a true universal kind of country Burglar sues Calif. homeowner, 90, who returned fire - Crimesider - CBS News . Robbers suing homeowners kind of happy sue society . One out of how many people who lost a loved who is content in their actions that lead to their death . Of course your life would be only once in jeopardy since you said you were a fire fighter and I'm pretty sure firefighters have gear and are trained . Good for you but your trained aren't you so the kid should be alive . ( I was really hoping to go pop psychologist .)
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