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Thread: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

  1. #181
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    IMO that's too harsh. I'd be more that willing to give the family the benefit of the doubt, and assume they did their best to save the boy the first time.

    That said, it is entirely plausible that part of his hysteria was a feeling of guilt over the failure of his first rescue attempt.
    Perhaps but it's also very docile compared to the opinions I've read in this thread from people who don't even understand much less have ever even been on a fire scene. People who have never even been in bunker gear or drug a hose. The guy I quoted said he would kill a cop for this...that's criminal, despicable, and so far into the realms of disgusting to me I can't even tell you in proper words. Hysteria is always on scenes...but people need to understand it cannot rule their actions...and when someone who is thinking clearly stops you...it's not wrong or a problem or anything against you as a person.....it's someone who knows the situation. Those cops know they will never be thanked but that man regardless has his life because of their actions - there was no other outcome.

    Now do all cops know the situation? No. Lets reveres it real fast with an anecdote. In 2006 we had a police officer arrive on a structure fire first. He didn't know if there was people in the building. He ran in there with a fire extinguisher about the size of a 2 liter coke bottle. Like the Father in this situation...my cop there didn't think, he gave in to adrenaline, and he himself almost became a causality. He's lucky we we're able to take him off the second story roof with the ladder truck before the roof caved in. That house as I remember it was a total loss - it was an old and very flammable building. No one is immune to hysteria.

    Clear thinking wins the day. Adrenaline causes injuries and loss of life. I just want people to understand the real situation and what's going on because I see a lot in here that makes me angry.


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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Note to self: If I ever need to save someone in a desperate situation sucker punch the cops first.

    Its not suicide. Its self sacrifice (possible, not guaranteed). Huge difference.
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  3. #183
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    Perhaps but it's also very docile compared to the opinions I've read in this thread....
    I concur. I fully agree that the idea of murdering a police officer for doing their job shows a deep flaw in one's ethics. But if you will pardon the term, I don't think you can counter incendiary remarks with additional incendiary remarks.

    I'd also guess that some of the posters have problems with authority, or at least its agents; and/or fail to understand how their alpha fantasies of outperforming professional firefighters are wholly unrealistic.

    Another factor is that people get very touchy about the use of tasers. I haven't done extensive research on the topic, and know tasers have their risks (and from what I understand, hurt like hell). I can certainly imagine, though, that other restraints could have resulted in serious and/or permanent harm to the subject -- e.g. they could have dislocated or broken an arm, they could have failed to restrain him, and so forth. As you noted, it's a no-win situation for the first responder, and it's easy to target the use of tasers as "evidence" that the cops were somehow unfeeling or cruel.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    I concur. I fully agree that the idea of murdering a police officer for doing their job shows a deep flaw in one's ethics. But if you will pardon the term, I don't think you can counter incendiary remarks with additional incendiary remarks.

    I'd also guess that some of the posters have problems with authority, or at least its agents; and/or fail to understand how their alpha fantasies of outperforming professional firefighters are wholly unrealistic.

    Another factor is that people get very touchy about the use of tasers. I haven't done extensive research on the topic, and know tasers have their risks (and from what I understand, hurt like hell). I can certainly imagine, though, that other restraints could have resulted in serious and/or permanent harm to the subject -- e.g. they could have dislocated or broken an arm, they could have failed to restrain him, and so forth. As you noted, it's a no-win situation for the first responder, and it's easy to target the use of tasers as "evidence" that the cops were somehow unfeeling or cruel.
    A firefighter is just doing their job. They have family to go back to. There is no replacement for love and no firefighter can compare to the willpower it bestows. If someone wants to put themselves at risk for a good enough reason then little ticket collector cops can **** off. I wonder what sort of bill this guy will get for firefighters and cops showing up yet not letting this man attempt to save his son "because they dont wanna feel bad if he hurts himself". So instead they let him deal with grief for eternity or until he dies. What they did was greedy and for themselves because they didnt want to see more tragedy. And cast this man into a loop of a hell in his mind.

    Its easy for the cops because it isnt a member of their family in there. They still get to see their childs smile when they get home. They can pat themselves on the back all they want but by not even letting this man try on his own accord they really dont care about him. They just dont want to feel bad about themselves.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    A firefighter is just doing their job. They have family to go back to. There is no replacement for love....
    Love cannot repel flames. Willpower will not overcome smoke inhalation. Running into a burning building to save a child is not reality, it's Hollywood nonsense.

    I also see no indication that the firefighters, either in general or in this case, were phoning it in. The mere suggestion is insulting.


    If someone wants to put themselves at risk for a good enough reason then little ticket collector cops can **** off.
    That "ticket collector" is doing his job, by stopping someone from recklessly and rashly causing their own death.

    I mean, really. Do none of you people recognize how insanely dangerous it is to run into a burning building?


    So instead they let him deal with grief for eternity or until he dies.
    At least he's alive to feel the grief; at least his family doesn't have to mourn him, too.


    What they did was greedy and for themselves because they didnt want to see more tragedy. And cast this man into a loop of a hell in his mind.
    "Didn't want more tragedy?" You mean, they didn't want more people to die? That, to you, is greedy and selfish?

    Pardon my French, but that's total bull****. There is no way the first responders restrained this guy out of greed or self-interest. They made a choice to protect people in their community, at great risk to their own health and safety, and in many cases without much pay.

    And again, if the cops did nothing, watching family member after family member run into the building, what would be the response then? They'd be torn apart for letting an entire family perish.


    Its easy for the cops because it isnt a member of their family in there.
    Again, what hogwash.

    Cops aren't perfect; firefighters aren't angels. When they screw up, we need to call them on it. In this case, they did not screw up; they did exactly what they were supposed to do. The people who put their lives on the line to keep you safe deserve respect, not insults based on macho fantasies of Saving the Day.

  6. #186
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    A firefighter is just doing their job.They have family to go back to.
    So we're the cops...

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    If someone wants to put themselves at risk for a good enough reason then little ticket collector cops can **** off.
    Wrong. The point of 911 is to minimalize the loss of life and property. In this case the Father's life was the only thing the responders we're able to save.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    I wonder what sort of bill this guy will get for firefighters and cops showing up yet not letting this man attempt to save his son "because they dont wanna feel bad if he hurts himself".
    Zero. The Fire Department doesn't bill and neither does the police department. Any property lost will be submitted to the insurance company. It's not that they don't want to feel bad...it's the law...and it's ethically right.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    So instead they let him deal with grief for eternity or until he dies.
    That was his only option to begin with. He'll go through grief and move on...like every one else in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    What they did was greedy and for themselves because they didnt want to see more tragedy.
    Bull****. There was nothing greedy about it. They did their jobs and they are heroes for doing it. There was no reason for this man to throw away his life for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Its easy for the cops because it isnt a member of their family in there.
    It doesn't matter who or what it is...it wasn't easy for anyone...but that's the cards fate threw the responders in this situation. If you don't want to understand it...that's your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    They can pat themselves on the back all they want
    As they should. They deserve commendations.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    but by not even letting this man try on his own accord they really dont care about him. They just dont want to feel bad about themselves.
    ^Emotional bull**** that further shows you have no concept of what happened and that you clearly do not understand.


  7. #187
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    What they did was greedy and for themselves because they didnt want to see more tragedy. And cast this man into a loop of a hell in his mind.
    It's also easier to die in a tragedy than to live with survivors guilt. Death hurts the living more than the dead. If he did die it's his wife or any other family member that lives with survivors guilt for two family members. The family support through shared experience is gone. A lonely widow is left behind.

    Everyone there is selfish for the reason of not wanting to have a life on their conscience, including the father.

  8. #188
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    my question is: Since he was unable to get to the kid when the fire first started, what made this guy think he could get to the kid after the fire had gotten even hotter and spread even further?
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    my question is: Since he was unable to get to the kid when the fire first started, what made this guy think he could get to the kid after the fire had gotten even hotter and spread even further?
    Im assuming his first instinct was to be safe. Once he got to safety "OH ****...". Human blunder. Obviously the guy thought there was still SOME chance.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Im assuming his first instinct was to be safe. Once he got to safety "OH ****...". Human blunder. Obviously the guy thought there was still SOME chance.
    according to the article, hte man and wife tried to get to the kid when the fire first started and couldn't. but, of course, that could be BS and they just didn't want to admit they panicked, forgot about the kid and just got the **** out. which would also explain why the guy was so desperate to try to get back in, guilt over forgetting about the kid in the first place.


    by the time the guy tried to get back in, there was no chance. the fire had already been burning for some time (long enough to spread to the upstairs windows) with both floors burning, it was at least 1400-2000 degrees in there. no way in hell that kid was still alive.

    ****ty situation but sometimes there just anything you can do.

    my last deployment, the convoy I was in got hit with an IED. There was an Iraqi truck carrying ammo in line behind my vehicle. It got hit and set on fire. 5 guys in the truck. we unassed our MRAP to try to assist and the rounds were cooking off so fast, it would have been suicide to attempt to approach the vehicle. As highest ranking guy in the convoy, I had to make the decision to either send my guys into a hail of bullets with no way to supress the fire or let the Iraqi dudes burn. Probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-12-13 at 01:34 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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