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Thread: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

  1. #171
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Grief doesn't go away, but it does die down. It gets to a point where you can continue your life without those emotions from the loss being right there on the surface. It is called the stages of grief.

    The 5 Stages of Loss and Grief | Psych Central

    7 STAGES OF GRIEF
    No ****. I don't need a lecture on the 5 stages of grief, thanks very much. I'm already well aware of the different stages of grief that people experience after losing someone close to them.

    My post was in response to your ridiculous comment here, where you claimed the family should wait until their grief dies before speaking out. I merely corrected you stating that grief does not die. Maybe you meant to say "dies down" or "dimishes", only you know that but the fact is you didn't say that and what you said here was incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    In fact, the only actions I see as wrong in this situation is the family not waiting and letting their grief die before acting out on this supposed injustice they believe happened.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    This is why the world is goung to be so much worse off if the Libbos are running the show.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I was pointing out how Libbos are contrary on every damn thing.

    Just being wrong on occassion doesn't make you a Libbo.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We're here, so that Libbos can put words into our mouths and lie about what we say.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I never said everything is "Liberal/Conservative". So, use your infractions more wisely in the future.
    You brought up liberals, or "libbos" as you referred to them here on 3 separate occasions. You brought up liberals in a thread that had absolutely nothing to do with politics. I was right and you were wrong, yet again. And FWIW, I'll use my infractions as I see fit - they are mine and mine alone.
    Welfare (Food Stamps, WIC, etc...) are not entitlements. They are taxpayer funded handouts and shouldn't be called entitlements at all. Social Security and Veteran's benefits are 'Entitlements' because the people receiving them are entitled to them. They were earned and paid for by the recipients.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    No ****. I don't need a lecture on the 5 stages of grief, thanks very much. I'm already well aware of the different stages of grief that people experience after losing someone close to them.

    My post was in response to your ridiculous comment here, where you claimed the family should wait until their grief dies before speaking out. I merely corrected you stating that grief does not die. Maybe you meant to say "dies down" or "dimishes", only you know that but the fact is you didn't say that and what you said here was incorrect.
    And you are being stubborn in simply not wanting to see that I obviously meant that their grief is what caused them to view the police stopping the man from running back into the house to try to save his son as "wrong". Once that grief dies down, then rational thought should kick in (although some have shown that this wouldn't always be true). Rational thinking says that the likelihood of that man saving his son was pretty low. While the likelihood of him causing more issue for the situation, possibly even preventing help from reaching his son in time had it been a possibility, pretty high. I did mistype, but it shouldn't have been too hard for most people to know what I was saying. You obviously knew, but wanted to try to make it out as something else because you disagree with my support of the policemen stopping the man from doing something I see as very foolish.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And you are being stubborn in simply not wanting to see that I obviously meant that their grief is what caused them to view the police stopping the man from running back into the house to try to save his son as "wrong". Once that grief dies down, then rational thought should kick in (although some have shown that this wouldn't always be true). Rational thinking says that the likelihood of that man saving his son was pretty low. While the likelihood of him causing more issue for the situation, possibly even preventing help from reaching his son in time had it been a possibility, pretty high. I did mistype, but it shouldn't have been too hard for most people to know what I was saying. You obviously knew, but wanted to try to make it out as something else because you disagree with my support of the policemen stopping the man from doing something I see as very foolish.
    Not being stubborn at all, i don't make it a practice to assume someone means something different to what they state. I responded to your post based on what you typed.

    You now say you mistyped and you've now clarified what you meant to say. Cheers for that. Not sure why you chose not to do that to begin with rather than going off on a rant about the different stages of grieving. Everyone makes mistakes

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAkston View Post
    Running into a burning building (which in this particular case is the man's own house) to save his step-son that he dearly loves "absolutely could" (your words) make the situation worse and that's justification for handcuffing and tasing the guy?
    Afraid I'm with roguenuke on this one.

    "Don't run into a burning building" is about as basic as it gets. I mean, really. That's 2nd grade.

    With no training, no protective equipment, no partner and no backup, he was undoubtedly putting himself into harm's way and had little chance of success. If he got in the way of the firefighters inside the building, he was increasing the risks not just to himself, but to the firefighters as well. If another family member, neighbor or friend ran in after him -- and the cops just let it happen -- then there is no question that will make the situation worse.

    The police and fire department have not just the legal authority, but the responsibility, the obligation, the duty to stop family members from causing themselves harm, or their own deaths, by running into a burning building. That's their job -- to protect the public, even if it means doing things that individuals don't want them to do.

    I also find your declarations of "self sovereignty" to be wholly unpersuasive. In many circumstances, it is undoubtedly moral to save someone's life. It is not moral when you have a low chance of success, and doing so puts yourself and others into mortal danger.

    While I sympathize with the stepfather, the bottom line is he was hysterical, and had absolutely no idea what he was facing. He could not possibly make a rational decision about his odds of success, let alone survival.

    Using a taser might not have been the optimal method, and perhaps police today do rely too heavily on tasers. That said, I doubt the alternatives would be any safer or more pleasant.


    The reports show that the boy may have been saved.
    Unless they don't.

    Firefighters deemed the building too unsafe to enter at that moment. The stepfather, again, had no training, no protective equipment or partners; he could have easily been overcome with smoke or fatally burned long before he got to his stepson. Just by opening a door, he could have increased the size of the fire. At any moment, he could have been struck by a collapsing section of the house.

    In addition, reports show the family did try to save the child before they left the house, and failed in their attempt ("the boy's mother and stepfather were able to exit the backdoor of the house after an unsuccessful attempt to get to the boy sleeping in another room"). I see little reason to believe that his attempt would have been more successful the second time.


    If the FD isn't going to risk their life to save the boy, why shouldn't the man be able to?
    If a trained firefighter with the appropriate protective equipment can't get into the house to save the child, then a hysterical stepfather in his pajamas is unquestionably less likely to succeed.

    And since it's the job of the first responders to prevent people from dying, that pretty much means they have a moral (if not legal) obligation to prevent family members from dashing into the house.


    That boy died and it's a tragedy. That man will now live the rest of his life knowing that the boy could have been saved had the PD not handcuffed and tased him....
    No, he doesn't know it. He may believe it, he may suffer because of it, he may be traumatized by the night's events. That doesn't mean his belief is correct.


    You call it an "emotional state", the rest of the world calls in unconditional love.
    The man openly admitted he was (and I quote) hysterical. Nor is hysteria mutually exclusive with love; if anything, it was the latter (along with the failed first attempt, and of course the situation itself) that caused the former.

    His motivations do not change the fact that he emotionally compromised, which led him to act rashly and irrationally. The police may not have done it the right way, but they did the right thing by preventing him from running back into the burning building.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Afraid I'm with roguenuke on this one.
    ....
    His motivations do not change the fact that he emotionally compromised, which led him to act rashly and irrationally. The police may not have done it the right way, but they did the right thing by preventing him from running back into the burning building.
    This isn't a decision you make with math. If my son is in a burning building I am fine with risking my life for a 1/3 chance to get him out. The police were wrong.

    I'm a pretty forgiving person. I would have a difficult time ridding myself of the strong desire to track this cop down and kill him. As far as I would be concerned, that would be the man who put my boy in a coffin.
    Last edited by cpwill; 11-11-13 at 02:27 AM.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    This isn't a decision you make with math.
    Yeah, it sort of is. Ethical concerns are not settled by "who has the strongest emotions." Nor does anything about the stepfather's emotional attachment to the child change a single fact about the circumstances.


    If my son is in a burning building I am fine with risking my life for a 1/3 chance to get him out. The police were wrong.
    What you fail to recognize is that your decision isn't happening in a vacuum. Your actions will have a direct effect on the safety of numerous others, including the first responders who are risking their lives to save your family, your home, and your neighbors.

    In addition, as much as I hate to use a cliché: Hindsight is 20/20. It is very easy, especially for an untrained individual who wasn't there, to dream up a counterfactual where the rescue attempt was a success. I mean, how great would that be? The reality is almost certainly much different, which is why first responders are trained and obligated to prevent bystanders from rushing into a burning building.


    I'm a pretty forgiving person. I would have a difficult time ridding myself of the strong desire to track this cop down and kill him. As far as I would be concerned, that would be the man who put my boy in a coffin.
    Your desire to murder a police officer who was basically performing his duty, based on a pipe dream of a successful rescue by a guy in his pajamas, definitely is not helping your ethical case.

    In fact, it would be highly unethical for the officers to sit back and eat donuts while hysterical family member after hysterical family member rushes into the house to their doom.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAkston View Post
    Not sure why it took more than a week for this to make national headlines, but this is just sad. The police absolutely should not have done this. This is disturbing to say the least.
    As an EMT and Fire Fighter myself...I disagree. The Police absolutely should have done this, it was their responsibility to limit further loss of life, and they made the right call. Instead of one fatality there would have been two fatalities. These police offlicers are heroes for their quick thinking and action. If the fire was too hot for our bunker gear than the Father never had a chance to begin with...he would have burned up within the first 10 feet. Imagine the response if they did nothing - you people can't see it - but they we're screwed either way in this situation....either way someone was going to be outraged. Good for the police for doing their jobs and good for them for retaining rationality during a blaze.


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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    As far as I would be concerned, that would be the man who put my boy in a coffin.
    So suicide? The man who put the boy in the coffin was the Father...who ran out of the house without grabbing the kid in the very first place. So if blame must be given...it falls on him. You cannot blame the police for doing their job and saving this mans life. They didn't kill the boy, fire did, and no one was going to change that.


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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    So suicide? The man who put the boy in the coffin was the Father...who ran out of the house without grabbing the kid in the very first place. So if blame must be given...it falls on him.
    IMO that's too harsh. I'd be more that willing to give the family the benefit of the doubt, and assume they did their best to save the boy the first time.

    That said, it is entirely plausible that part of his hysteria was a feeling of guilt over the failure of his first rescue attempt.

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