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Thread: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

  1. #121
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    You can't seriously argue the mental state angle for several reasons.

    First it's patently untrue that every person thrust into a stressful situation is incapable of making a sound decision.

    Second, from a legal standpoint we hold people responsible for their decisions in all manner of stressful situations. Just look at self defense situations. The implication being that we assume sound decision making.

    Third we accept that type of behavior from soldiers saving their buddies all the time. We give them medals for it.

    Your point about getting in the way of rescue workers isn't valid because here the rescue workers have given up.

    And finally your point about destruction of evidence seems contrived. What evidence does he hope to destroy that the fire wouldn't? And if he runs in and then out with a gas can in hand I kind of think people will notice and even if the don't I don't think arson investigators really need a gas can to figure out that an accelerant was used.
    First, people are not held to the same standards in times of mental distress. A person who fights with the police, even striking them, during a fire while they are trying to get away would not (in almost all cases) be charged with a crime for doing so. In other situations, they would be. It is more than likely that the guy in the story in some way "assaulted" at least one of those officers for them to eventually use a tazer on him, yet he wasn't charged with anything. Why not? Because his mental state is taken into account during such assessments.

    Second (and I realize these are flipped), not all people do lose rational thinking ability during stressful situations, but the average person does, and that is where we base most of our legal standing from, what a reasonable, rational person would see as the right thing to do in the situation if they were actually thinking about it without the emotional burden of having their loved one in that situation. Would you go in for a complete stranger in the same situation? Probably not. But if you were trained as a firefighter is would you? Hopefully, and that is the point.

    Third, soldiers are trained to do those things and they don't have someone else on scene who is better trained. It is why we, as sailors have basic firefighting training and then do many shipboard drills on fires, because there is no one else to fight those fires, just us. We are trained to save people, to put out the fires. Watchstanders in my own job had the initial responsibility to know how to fight the fires (including what kind of fire we had).

    The rescue workers didn't give up. I proved in another post to another person that they in fact brought the boy out of the house still breathing (according to the father). So they simply had to wait til they could safely make it in. Waiting for a safer time is not "giving up", but rather not doing something that will hamper actual legitimate efforts to rescue someone during a fire.

    I wasn't talking about this guy. You act as if the police or firefighters knew the outcome we now have from the getgo. They don't. They know only what is going on in those moments. Since it isn't likely that anyone in their pajamas can provide proper identification (although this is a good indicator that the guy likely is who he says he is), it also is possible that he might not be an actual member of the household. Why let him go inside? Because he is emotionally distraught and is probably telling the truth? Because he wants to go in? What if he were a firebug trying to make the situation worse? My point is that at a given scene, the emergency responders do not have the same info that we, as the public, get a day, two, seven, later. They have to ensure that things are not made worse to the best of their ability.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  2. #122
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I say they were wrong. There is absolutely NO argument you can make otherwise to change my mind. The more I think about this the more set I become.
    And I'm going to say that you are going off of a emotional response, not facts. It doesn't matter if you don't like this and won't change your mind. It is what it is. If the situation happened the same with you being the person the cops had to stop, most cops, most firefighters would and should stop you too because they are trained, you aren't. They are prepared, you aren't (not in pajamas and barefeet). They have experience, and you likely don't. You can stubbornly be set in doing something foolish. I hope that it doesn't harm someone you love worse than the situation itself should it ever happen.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  3. #123
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Are you living as a Free Sovereign in a literal sense? Meaning you renounced citizenship, have no driver's license, no bank account, don't/can't vote, pay no taxes etc? That causes a very complex legal issues and I am suprised the government allows it. Probably so rare they don't think it's worth messing with.
    Do you do things for convenience sake? Well I for one do. I wear a mask not in the literal sense but figuratively. There are times and places to assert sovereignty. So long as I am basically left alone there wont be "problems". Yes I pay taxes get drivers licenses and all the rest. The difference is, if there is a time to assert my sovereignty I have that capability. Unfortunately the circumstances would have to be dire and completely unacceptable, apparent to all. At that point I would have little choice but to remove the mask of civility and assert with vigorous aggression my sovereignty which would unfortunately have a very messy uncertain outcome. I am very much like a bee in that I essentially only have one shot with my stinger and I must be able to make it count. The only two things I have going for me is the venom I have is exceptionally toxic, and the element of surprise. Is the venom toxic enough to equalize the equation. That is wholly unknown. Same with surprise. Maybe. Maybe not.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    It says in the article that the fire was too dangerous for the stepfather to try to rescue his son, and that the police tried to save him from himself.
    Sad, though I have to think that the police made the correct judgment. Though one has to wonder about using the stun guns twice after the father has been handcuffed.
    We live in a free country. I have the right to place my life in danger to protect my family. The cops have no authority to stop me
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #125
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And I'm going to say that you are going off of a emotional response, not facts. It doesn't matter if you don't like this and won't change your mind. It is what it is. If the situation happened the same with you being the person the cops had to stop, most cops, most firefighters would and should stop you too because they are trained, you aren't. They are prepared, you aren't (not in pajamas and barefeet). They have experience, and you likely don't. You can stubbornly be set in doing something foolish. I hope that it doesn't harm someone you love worse than the situation itself should it ever happen.
    It's not their kid, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  6. #126
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's not their kid, either.
    Makes no difference in ability to actually save a child from a fire. It simply doesn't. Adrenaline only goes so far. It doesn't give us magical see-through-smoke-and-in-dark powers. It basically makes us more alert and allows us to ignore pain that would normally be felt when doing things that then are seen as "extraordinary". It is plain wrong to believe that firefighters or even police or other people wouldn't have wanted to save that child if they believed they could actually do it. There is nothing honestly that should make anyone believe that the man had a better chance of saving the boy than anyone else there. And what is more likely is that having to deal with him trying slowed down efforts to actually get in there and try.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #127
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We live in a free country. I have the right to place my life in danger to protect my family. The cops have no authority to stop me
    Not true. You cannot put yourself in danger when there are others who are better equipped to do so and they are able to stop you. They have every authority to stop you because your efforts could impede their efforts to actually save the person. In fact, you could make the situation worse due to your inexperience and lack of training and protection for yourself.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #128
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    The puzzling part is I am not quite sure why it drives me so.
    I think it's a normal reaction. A Father has had the natural right since the dawn of time to protect and save his child. To deny him that is to deny his humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    This thread has well and truly pissed me off to no end like no other has.
    It's a very emotional subject, no matter what side of the argument you sit on. I've been a paramedic for 8 years. The last 5 as a critical care paramedic. I've witnessed first hand incredible acts of bravery that have resulted in a successful outcome when on the surface it would appear that there was minimal chance of success - and not always acts from qualified personnel.

    I'm not for one minute suggesting that Emergency services personnel shouldn't be actively trying to encourage/persuade anyone to not participate in what could be considered a potentially dangerous/life threatening situation but I do believe there are limits they should be able to employ.

    Of all the arguments i'm seeing here relating to why the Father should not have been allowed access, i'd have to say that the one that puzzles me the most is that due to poor visibility "he could've stepped on his Son." "Sorry, i'm not going to try and rescue you because I could've stepped on you"? Sorry, that doesn't even come close to a justifiable reason.

    I'm glad i'm a paramedic and not that Police Officer. I'd make a lousy cop apparently because I wouldn't have tasered the Dad, I would've gone in with him .

  9. #129
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Not true. You cannot put yourself in danger when there are others who are better equipped to do so and they are able to stop you. They have every authority to stop you because your efforts could impede their efforts to actually save the person. In fact, you could make the situation worse due to your inexperience and lack of training and protection for yourself.
    Running into a burning building is going to make the situation worse?

    This is why the world is goung to be so much worse off if the Libbos are running the show.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #130
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Your talking to someone who routinely breaks the law and only follows it as convenience. The law doesn't mean crap to me. That's neither here nor there. We wont agree on this ever. I sincerely hope if any officer that steps in my way rethinks their position if they want to go home, there are certain things you just don't get in the way of. Good damn thing I have fire suppression equipment installed at my residence. You don't agree of course but you have your opinion I have mine.
    I sincerely hope (and doubt) that such a situation ever arise for you.

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