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Thread: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

  1. #111
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Suicide is not illegal in the US.
    Yes, sorry, I later acknowledged this in the thread.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Who decides that this a person who is actually telling them "don't go after me" and not just someone they need to save? Plus, what happens if one or multiple of those people become "Screaming Alphas" and start spreading the fire, putting others in danger? It simply would not work. It isn't feasible. Most people are not going to accept that it is okay to allow an emotionally distraught person to make that decision for themself.
    The person themself. If a person decides to put himself at risk to save a loved one, especially when the professionals have declined to, it is his decision. It is his business.
    First responders should be under no obligation nor should they have the authority to interfere. It is simply not their business.

    Spreading the fire and other "what ifs" are beside the point. There are what ifs to every situation and you cannot stop someone from doing something because of a remote what if.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    The person themself. If a person decides to put himself at risk to save a loved one, especially when the professionals have declined to, it is his decision. It is his business.
    First responders should be under no obligation nor should they have the authority to interfere. It is simply not their business.

    Spreading the fire and other "what ifs" are beside the point. There are what ifs to every situation and you cannot stop someone from doing something because of a remote what if.
    It isn't that simple. A person who knows that their loved one is in a burning building is not in a mentally competent state. No one would ever allow them to legally sign a document right at that point. It would be way to easy to argue that the very nature of the situation caused them to make a decision that, if given more thought, they wouldn't make.

    No, spreading the fire is very much a part of what the situation is. Plus, what if the person ends up harming the person that the firefighters should be saving? This makes situations harder and isn't acceptable. What if they are in the way when firefighters finally make it in to actually save the original person or should they simply be left to die because a loved one tried and failed?

    Plus, another consideration is that when police and firefighters come to a fire, they have no idea whether it was arson or not, even in a home fire. They cannot allow people to run into a burning house to "save" someone when that person could potentially be just looking to ensure evidence gets destroyed. Heck, how do they even know coming to the scene who is or is not the owner of a house? Just because someone says "I'm going to save my <insert loved one here>" doesn't mean they are telling the truth.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 11-09-13 at 03:53 PM.
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  4. #114
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It isn't that simple. A person who knows that their loved one is in a burning building is not in a mentally competent state. No one would ever allow them to legally sign a document right at that point. It would be way to easy to argue that the very nature of the situation caused them to make a decision that, if given more thought, they wouldn't make.

    No, spreading the fire is very much a part of what the situation is. Plus, what if the person ends up harming the person that the firefighters should be saving? This makes situations harder and isn't acceptable. What if they are in the way when firefighters finally make it in to actually save the original person or should they simply be left to die because a loved one tried and failed?

    Plus, another consideration is that when police and firefighters come to a fire, they have no idea whether it was arson or not, even in a home fire. They cannot allow people to run into a burning house to "save" someone when that person could potentially be just looking to ensure evidence gets destroyed. Heck, how do they even know coming to the scene who is or is not the owner of a house? Just because someone says "I'm going to save my " doesn't mean they are telling the truth.
    You can't seriously argue the mental state angle for several reasons.

    First it's patently untrue that every person thrust into a stressful situation is incapable of making a sound decision.

    Second, from a legal standpoint we hold people responsible for their decisions in all manner of stressful situations. Just look at self defense situations. The implication being that we assume sound decision making.

    Third we accept that type of behavior from soldiers saving their buddies all the time. We give them medals for it.

    Your point about getting in the way of rescue workers isn't valid because here the rescue workers have given up.

    And finally your point about destruction of evidence seems contrived. What evidence does he hope to destroy that the fire wouldn't? And if he runs in and then out with a gas can in hand I kind of think people will notice and even if the don't I don't think arson investigators really need a gas can to figure out that an accelerant was used.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And both you and Red are wrong. You are putting others at risk, including very likely the person you are trying to save.

    And why in most cases would you be doing this? Maybe pride, maybe just foolishness, maybe just stupidity. But in reality you are likely to do more harm than good in a situation similar to the one described by the OP. You don't get it because you want to believe that your actions would be better than nothing. Just because neither of you can understand that the likelihood of that being true isn't very high at all, doesn't mean you are right.

    And, no, you do not have an absolute right to put yourself (and others) at more risk for your personal feelings, despite your beliefs on this. The police and other emergency personnel stop people from jumping off bridges, shooting themselves, running into burning houses/buildings, or trying other things that put them and/or others in danger all the time because that is part of their job, no matter those people's personal feelings about their right to do those things.

    You know what. Neither of you understand that I understand those feelings that would make you say that you would go in after your children despite the police or other personnel there. Both my husband and I have discussed this and feel that either of us would try to go in to save our children as well. However, unlike you and Red, we would also understand other, clearer heads stopping us afterward (hopefully before we became a burden to the efforts) because in that circumstance people are not thinking correctly and that does lead to putting others in danger, including those who might be rescued.
    My motive is most basic. I am sovereign. The right to risk my life is a sovereign decision NO ONE may preclude without risk of retaliation. It is my CLAIMED right and I expect it to be honored. Those who would attempt to deny me this most basic of sovereign rights will find that a decision they would regret profoundly. The law and the police claim what is not theirs to claim. I make my own choices, I keep my own council, I do as I will. To my children, to my family, I am honor and duty bound, by choice, to do EVERTHING I can to protect and or save them including the FUTILE sacrifice of my life if there is even smallest sliver of a chance I can. There will be no what if, no doubt, it is do or die trying. I protect my clan, they protect me.

    This thread has well and truly pissed me off to no end like no other has. My rage gets to such I have to break things. I don't normally do that with this forum in fact I have never done that till now. The puzzling part is I am not quite sure why it drives me so.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    My motive is most basic. I am sovereign. The right to risk my life is a sovereign decision NO ONE may preclude without risk of retaliation. It is my CLAIMED right and I expect it to be honored. Those who would attempt to deny me this most basic of sovereign rights will find that a decision they would regret profoundly. The law and the police claim what is not theirs to claim. I make my own choices, I keep my own council, I do as I will. To my children, to my family, I am honor and duty bound, by choice, to do EVERTHING I can to protect and or save them including the FUTILE sacrifice of my life if there is even smallest sliver of a chance I can. There will be no what if, no doubt, it is do or die trying. I protect my clan, they protect me.

    This thread has well and truly pissed me off to no end like no other has. My rage gets to such I have to break things. I don't normally do that with this forum in fact I have never done that till now. The puzzling part is I am not quite sure why it drives me so.
    Are you living as a Free Sovereign in a literal sense? Meaning you renounced citizenship, have no driver's license, no bank account, don't/can't vote, pay no taxes etc? That causes a very complex legal issues and I am suprised the government allows it. Probably so rare they don't think it's worth messing with.

  7. #117
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Since they brought out the child while still breathing, but then died, it is entirely possible if the step-father could have gotten to that little boy in time to save his life. But the fire chief decided that he is who has total control of that man and the sole person to make life-death decisions for him (and for the child). That didn't work out for the child.

    But I think he would lose any lawsuit.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No they weren't wrong.

    What if the man would have run in and stepped on his son because he couldn't see anything through the smoke and the son was trying to get out so wasn't on his bed (I have no idea where he was in fact but that would probably be where the father looked for him)? Firefighters have equipment to help them see through fires, including thermal imaging cameras and lights that allow them to see much better through smoke than the father could have ever hoped to see (especially since the fire happened at night, in the dark to begin with). What if the father would have flared the fire up by bursting open the door (something the firefighters would have likely been more cautious about doing)? What if the father would have knocked some piece of furniture over on his way in causing an obstruction between him and the son or between them and getting out? There are so many ways that an untrained person running into a fire could cause so many more issues for those who are trained to actually do the rescuing. And those issues caused by the untrained loved one could mean the difference between the firefighters being able to rescue the other person and instead having to rescue the "hero".
    I say they were wrong. There is absolutely NO argument you can make otherwise to change my mind. The more I think about this the more set I become.
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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I say they were wrong. There is absolutely NO argument you can make otherwise to change my mind. The more I think about this the more set I become.
    That almost never happens on this forum. Most are very flexible on their opinions and readily concede they were wrong or they were persuaded to change their mind.

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    Re: Missouri man trying to save stepson from fire hit with stun gun by police

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    That almost never happens on this forum.
    At this point I have begun breaking things, I am not going to be adding much more to this debate. I don't ever get agitated with debates yet somehow I did on this one.
    So to keep my house intact I am going to reduce myself to observation and the occasional comment. Good thing I keep my armory elsewhere.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

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