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Thread: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    Suggest reading "Embers of War" and "A Solider Reports".
    appreciate the response, not the format. I can't answer you inside quotes. Yes I'm aware the NVA and the V.C. are not the same.
    The VC. were 'irregulars", to my knowledge.

    I wasn't there, I would not have gone by the time my lottery number made me available in '73.
    By that time it was evident that long war was not going to end with anything but more dead for no reason.
    Except some insane idea that Vietnam was part of the Cold War - the only reason sold to us back stateside that we needed to be there.

    Thanks for the suggestion on the reads, it not all that important to me since I wasn't there, but I do respect those whom were.
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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Ho Chi Minh was the "George Washington" of Vietnam, even in South Vietnam. He had united the citizenry against a common enemy, France, and had we not butted in, there would be a million more Vietnamese.
    How many soon to be Americans did George Washington murder?

    He united "the citizenry" by executions and threat of execution for a large part.

    Had he never been born, there would be millions more Vietnamese.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Thanks, Annata. There are a whole lot of google articles of varying opinions here https://www.google.ca/search?q=ameri...FMblyQHrt4DwBg It was a very painful time in American history and I don;t know if it worthwhile going through the whole thing again. I certainly don't pretend to be an expert but i do like to some some research when I feel that propaganda is being used, as it certainly was.

    They've done that in Europe but the troops could have left for deployment Vietnam rather than remaining scattered across Europe, well after the time they became essential.. It seems we have learned to much from Vietnam and not enough from WWII.



    These constant 'withdrawals' are not doing anyone any good. As far as the enemy is concerned it is a 'retreat'. not a withdrawal.

    That's what you do in a war until the enemy retreats.

    The war was lost in the United States, not in Vietnam



    South Vietnam could not win without American help. Remember they were fighting Russia and Chinese communists as well.

    The enemies of democracy seem to have learned a great deal more from Vietnam than many of the American people. If the combined forces of the United States, the world's only Superpower, and all the other democracies, cannot defeat a ragtag army of third world terrorists what does that say about our futures, and those of our children?

    As the US retreats from the world stage there will be other powers, probably from Asia, who will take its place. Perhaps these next 'superpowers' will have the stomach to finish a war as easily as it starts, or before it gets out of hand.
    we'll have to agree to disagree, as you said it was a very painfuol time, and we just look a that war in different ways.
    The "superpower" thing (bolded) is a good discussion; most of my anti-war friends are quite sure the US role in the world is due to our "American exceptionalism"
    run wild.
    I don't disagree - it is a bad way to think, but I also do know that since WWII, and perhaps back to WWI, when the world screws itself up.
    the world does look to the US to "fix it".

    I'd rather see self-policing regional powers take care of their own flare-ups/conflicts. The US has a global reach, and a somewhat global role,
    but i'd argue that our exclusive role is no longer needed, or wanted.

    Take AfPak for ex: we leave there a hated occupiers - and our drone wars did cause some of that.
    We should have just gone in and taken out the terrorist bases.

    Which does bring us back to Vietnam, our global reach wasn't needed. Vietnam,whatever the outcome really made no difference to our nat'l security.
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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Ho Chi Minh was the "George Washington" of Vietnam, even in South Vietnam. He had united the citizenry against a common enemy, France, and had we not butted in, there would be a million more Vietnamese.
    Ho Chi Minh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    George Washington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Do you spell "Communists" FRANCE. Vietnam was a French colony. Colony a/k/a colonizers. Imperialists. Ho Chi Minh was Vietnamese. French are French. Americans are Americans. Vietnam is for Vietnamese. Ergo, if there is any fighting in Vietnam, it should be between Vietnamese and any others are interlopers. We do not spread liberty, justice, freedom, liberty and justice for all. We acquire resources for Corporate America and strategic geography for our military. Wake up.
    looking back at French IndoChina, the reason for being there was colonialism. What we now call corporatism, as corporations now have the global reach the old colonial powers used to do with their 'hard power'.
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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    we'll have to agree to disagree, as you said it was a very painfuol time, and we just look a that war in different ways.
    The "superpower" thing (bolded) is a good discussion; most of my anti-war friends are quite sure the US role in the world is due to our "American exceptionalism"
    run wild.
    If you consider the number of wars going on in the world prior to the US becoming a world power (some time during WWII) then you will see hw things changed dramatically. We can talk of European becoming Nazi but there is little doubt that all of Europe, rather than just the Eastern half, would have been communist. Some Europeans were even voting for it. That they are neither Nazi or Communist is more to America than any other country. The problem appears to be that few recognize America's importance to the world , as well as its relevance, and that holds especially true in America. If your friends believe that there is no 'exceptionalism' to America than they have not familiarized themselves with the term or have only a limited and bias view of history.
    I don't disagree - it is a bad way to think, but I also do know that since WWII, and perhaps back to WWI, when the world screws itself up.
    the world does look to the US to "fix it".
    This all part of that 'exceptionalism'.

    I'd rather see self-policing regional powers take care of their own flare-ups/conflicts. The US has a global reach, and a somewhat global role,
    but i'd argue that our exclusive role is no longer needed, or wanted.
    Yes, that would be wonderful if Nazis didn't want more power, fascist, communists, islamofacists, and so on, but the hard fact is that they do. They are quite open about it. It seems that America has been so successful at extinguishing serious outbursts and controlled possible world wars that people are now taking this peace for granted. But that's never been the world we lived in.

    Take AfPak for ex: we leave there a hated occupiers - and our drone wars did cause some of that. We should have just gone in and taken out the terrorist bases.
    This is what happens when you fight wars through half measures by trying to mollify the critics at home. Certainly BHO is not a war time President, nor was any of those who gained political appointments. In fact he lost several four star generals and has used the military more as a social laboratory than as a fighting machine.

    Which does bring us back to Vietnam, our global reach wasn't needed. Vietnam,whatever the outcome really made no difference to our nat'l security.
    I prefer listening to what the communists had to say in this regard and in fact Russian leaders said later that if the Americans made such a big deal out of a country on the other side of the world, what would they do closer to home? Post war comments by former communist leaders is the best place to learn about what went on during those times. They also give Ronald Reagan credit for the collapse of the USSR, by the way, while leftists would never do that.
    Last edited by Grant; 11-11-13 at 06:46 PM.

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    looking back at French IndoChina, the reason for being there was colonialism. What we now call corporatism, as corporations now have the global reach the old colonial powers used to do with their 'hard power'.
    Then you must be pleased that so many corporations are leaving the United States, even though they are taking many of the jobs with them.

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Not entirely. We've now established that if you're the one saying it, we know it's not true. Peace out.
    And, unable to defend your position you resort to insult. I had hoped for better. Regardless, I suggest you revisit the (fictional) case of Philip Nolan as described by Edward Everett Hale. There is no atonement for some crimes against country.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Then you must be pleased that so many corporations are leaving the United States, even though they are taking many of the jobs with them.
    i was reading about "reshoring"
    The decision by General Motors to bring 10,000 IT jobs back to the U.S. over the next three to five years has been well chronicled. GM is definitely the biggest mover in the emerging insourcing or reshoring trend. We have also seen major U.S. companies including GE, Starbucks and Caterpillar announce the reshoring of manufacturing, services and IT jobs. Others will follow as the "Made in America" trend gains momentum
    Outsourcing Vs. Insourcing: You Need Both - Global Cio - Outsourcing
    , it is such a complex topic,
    beyond my ability to grasp, but so needed to be able to understood, to design policies to facilitate it.
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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    [QUOTE=Grant;1062533017]
    If you consider the number of wars going on in the world prior to the US becoming a world power (some time during WWII) then you will see hw things changed dramatically. We can talk of European becoming Nazi but there is little doubt that all of Europe, rather than just the Eastern half, would have been communist. Some Europeans were even voting for it. That they are neither Nazi or Communist is more to America than any other country. The problem appears to be that few recognize America's importance to the world , as well as its relevance, and that holds especially true in America. If your friends believe that there is no 'exceptionalism' to America than they have not familiarized themselves with the term or have only a limited and bias view of history.
    This all part of that 'exceptionalism'.
    It is indeed, but Vietnam wasn't a war for the US to concern itself about.
    We thought it was in the frenzy of the cold war, and after Korea, but it really had no bearing on our hemisphere.

    Yes, that would be wonderful if Nazis didn't want more power, fascist, communists, islamofacists, and so on, but the hard fact is that they do. They are quite open about it. It seems that America has been so successful at extinguishing serious outbursts and controlled possible world wars that people are now taking this peace for granted. But that's never been the world we lived in.
    not recently. Not Syria -a regional proxty war, that we almsot stumbled into.
    Such is the danger of thinking the US always has a role to play -we don't

    This is what happens when you fight wars through half measures by trying to mollify the critics at home. Certainly BHO is not a war time President, nor was any of those who gained political appointments. In fact he lost several four star generals and has used the military more as a social laboratory than as a fighting machine.
    I don't know how else to have fought Afg. we picked the counterinsurgency strategy, similiar to waht we did in Vietnam -commonly called "nationbuilding"
    we cannot build outside societys, we can assist for a short term, but the danger becomes like Vietnam and Afganistan - long drawn out wars which leave those countries dependent on US forces to succeed.

    I prefer listening to what the communists had to say in this regard and in fact Russian leaders said later that if the Americans made such a big deal out of a country on the other side of the world, what would they do closer to home? Post war comments by former communist leaders is the best place to learn about what went on during those times. They also give Ronald Reagan credit for the collapse of the USSR, by the way, while leftists would never do that.
    Cuba was much more relevant to the US, even there the Bay of Pigs was badly played, though JFK recovered nicely during the Cuban missile crisis.
    Oṃ maṇi padme hūṃ

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