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Thread: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    No one who knowingly perpetuates lies has the right to criticize another person's reputation or credibility. Anyone who does has abandoned all principles.
    Well I guess that's the point: there's no way to establish the truth of the matter.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Well I guess that's the point: there's no way to establish the truth of the matter.
    Not entirely. We've now established that if you're the one saying it, we know it's not true. Peace out.

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    I would ask you how we win our current/recent wars, but not wanting to wander off topic too much.

    To stay on topic then, how could we have "won Vietnam?" It surely wasn't for lack of trying.
    Just google something like 'america could have won vietnam' or something similar, and you will see dozens of articles on the subject. Anti American propaganda won that war, with America also turning on itself and its leaders.

    The Vietnam War was much like the Korean War and a part of the Cold War. Of course it never would have been fought without the enemy being international communism, a movement which largely got a free pass in the US and European MSM, and often still does.

    Many of those communist leaders are forgotten today while the names of 'Tricky Dicky Nixon' and 'Ronald Raygun' are still familiar to everyone. The anti American propaganda campaign was the greatest and most successful in world history, and Hanoi Jane Fonda and her husband played a significant part in it.

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I was in Country as well. I hated Hanoi Jane for a few years until I found out what the war was about and then my hatred moved to the politics that sent us over there. At least she tried to stop the war, better than most and infinitely better than scumbag Nugent. Her heart was in the right place but her mind was not yet mature. She has been consistent throughout her very public life and supported some very good causes. I forgive her for youthful indiscretion.
    The war was against the spread of the red contagion worldwide. Do you have another opinion?

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I did use your whole quote. And if I want to look at Jane Fonda's actions in relation (and comparison) to the war itself, I will do that, thank you very much.
    No, you didn't use the whole quote and certainly you can use Fonda\s part in comparison with the war itself. I'm just asking that you don't do it with me because I'm not interested in your synopsis and therefore a waste of time. Maybe someone else cares.
    And the point of them being Democrats is...?
    Many appear to hold Republicans responsible for Vietnam. Of course Fonda and her husband were also Democrats.
    That would be of little comfort to the 58,000 American soldiers killed in the war.
    But of course that is not part of the conversation. We are discussing those who are alive and how they were treated and Jane Fonda's role in all of it. Wandering off topic that way doesn't enhance the flow of debate.
    The treatment by civilians against soldiers was disgusting and indefensible, and you won't see me claim otherwise. As for "the right reasons," I don't believe going to war over ideology and economics (capitalism vs. communism) are valid reasons, but I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.
    It was never about communism versus capitalism, it was communism versus human rights and freedoms. But claiming it was against 'capitalism' made a better argument for totalitarianism.

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    It was never about communism versus capitalism, it was communism versus human rights and freedoms. But claiming it was against 'capitalism' made a better argument for totalitarianism.
    I totally agree.

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Just google something like 'america could have won vietnam' or something similar, and you will see dozens of articles on the subject. Anti American propaganda won that war, with America also turning on itself and its leaders.

    The Vietnam War was much like the Korean War and a part of the Cold War. Of course it never would have been fought without the enemy being international communism, a movement which largely got a free pass in the US and European MSM, and often still does.

    Many of those communist leaders are forgotten today while the names of 'Tricky Dicky Nixon' and 'Ronald Raygun' are still familiar to everyone. The anti American propaganda campaign was the greatest and most successful in world history, and Hanoi Jane Fonda and her husband played a significant part in it.
    with all due respect, i took you up on this. This is the best and really only "what if" I could find, please let me know if you have a better source.

    If the United States had provided that level of support in 1975, when South Vietnam collapsed in the face of another North Vietnamese offensive,
    the outcome might have been at least the same as in 1972....In 1974-75, the United States snatched defeat from the jaws of victory
    The war we could have won http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/01/opinion/01morris.html
    i tried to find the salient phrase or 2, that actually claims if the US hadn't withdrawn support;
    somehow the ARVN forces could have stepped up and defeated, and unified Vietnam.

    While it's true the US forces never lost a battle (as commonly stated) the US couldn't stay there in perpetuity.
    Nixon's idea was "Vietnamization"; very similar to the 'transition' we are trying to accomplish as the ISAF forces withdrawl from Afganistan.

    I don't buy either premise. It's not like we didn't give our all in Vietnam -
    the prosecution of the war was escalated to carpet bombing, mining Hanoi's harbor, etc.

    There isn't anything I can think of we didn't do that would have turned that war around,
    to the point the S. Vietnamese could have taken control of the country.

    The same thing is going to happen in Afganistan, if history is any guide.
    As we leave security forces in place to somehow support the Afgan national forces; the Afgani forces have to be able to withstand the Talban.
    The similarity of the Taliban to the Vietnam's Viet Cong, and the NVA is that those forces are more dedicated to winning.

    That's what happened in Vietnam; no matter how much longer we stayed, in the end the S. Vietnamese didn't want to win badly enough.

    Not being able to see the future, but seeing this template in play in Vietnam, i would assume, the same situtation will happen in Afg.
    The Taliban are more dedicated to winning, and seizing the gov't -
    even as the existing representative western style gov't in place is makig plans for a support role for the Talban.

    In other words; both the V.C. and the Taliban were/are not going to settle for any power sharing arrangement
    Last edited by annata; 11-11-13 at 04:18 PM.
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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by loader View Post
    The war was against the spread of the red contagion worldwide. Do you have another opinion?
    The war was an imperialistic aggression to keep Vietnam under Western control, especially the ocean area and shipping channels around South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh actually requested US aid after WWII to help stabilize his country. The Red Contagion must be what is operating in Vietnam today because they won the war. I don't see any problems or threats from Vietnam, must be overblown conspiracy theories by radical right wing, neocon nutjobs, eh.

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, you didn't use the whole quote and certainly you can use Fonda\s part in comparison with the war itself. I'm just asking that you don't do it with me because I'm not interested in your synopsis and therefore a waste of time. Maybe someone else cares.
    If you ignore the larger picture then the end result is that the outrage against Jane Fonda is wildly disproportionate to the justification and consequences of the war itself. By ignoring that you make it easier to see Fonda as some super villain who's responsible for countless American deaths, but it's hilariously simplistic and inaccurate. What's enlightening is your use of the word "murder" to describe the Viet Cong killing our troops. In fact, you used it twice, giving the appearance you were outraged that if we took part in their war our soldiers would be killed. What did you expect to happen when our government sent our troops into a hostile area in another country?

    Many appear to hold Republicans responsible for Vietnam. Of course Fonda and her husband were also Democrats.
    Fascinating.

    But of course that is not part of the conversation. We are discussing those who are alive and how they were treated and Jane Fonda's role in all of it. Wandering off topic that way doesn't enhance the flow of debate.
    Talking about the Vietnam War in a thread on someone in VietNam during the Vietnam war is "off topic?" You're using a definition of "off topic" I'm not familiar with.

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    Re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    I would ask you how we win our current/recent wars, but not wanting to wander off topic too much.

    To stay on topic then, how could we have "won Vietnam?" It surely wasn't for lack of trying.
    Well, we did try but when the military is severely limited in how to conduct warfare by dumb political leaders, it drags things out. Just as in Vietnam. The ironic part is the war of attrition that we employed worked. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't quick but it nonetheless worked. The reason why the North Vietnamese went to the peace table was, they were effectively out of troops. Then of course weak kneed, dumb politicians on our side took completely over resulting in the fall of South Vietnam a few years later when the North Vietnamese had troops again.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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