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Thread: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Precedent is crucial because "aid and comfort" are vague terms.
    Only if you insist on them being vague. Otherwise they are understood by every English speaking person.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Only if you insist on them being vague. Otherwise they are understood by every English speaking person.
    If words meant exactly what they said there wouldn't be the need for Supreme Court cases in order to decide if something was constitutional. More on that point: Presidents both right and left wouldn't appoint people to the Supreme Court to interpret the constitution as they themselves understand it. And finally, if words meant exactly what they said there wouldn't be over twenty thousand denominations of Christianity. So the idea that "aid and abet" is immune to interpretation is beyond silly. And that's why I asked for a legal precedent, because treason in this case is a legal term and without precedent to cite all anyone's going to do here is toss out their opinions, and frankly I'm not interested in those.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 11-09-13 at 03:49 PM.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    Do you have a hard time understanding documents that are very clear in meaning? Or do words mean nothing to you, like an -ist?
    Documents are not immune from evolution and reinterpretation. Do you understand the need for a word like "parse"?
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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    I'm not a Vietnam veteran, so I admit I've never fully understood what all the fuse was about over Jane Fonda's visit to N. Vietnam or the photos that were taken of her amongst the N. VC troops. Part of me understands the impression she left, certainly. But there's another side that always believed perhaps there was another side to the story folks either didn't know, didn't want to know (because of their hatred for the war along with their personal emotional investment in the war, i.e., they fought in it, knew someone who went over their or lost a friend or loved one).

    Now, call me a liberal if you wish, but as I said since I'm not of that era nor am I a Vietnam vet I don't claim to fully understand the emotional fall out that resonates with Vietnam vets to this day. Nonetheless, I have tried to learn about this moment in time and seek to understand from the Vietnam vet's point of view why her visit and subsequent photo shot still leaves a bitter taste in their mouths. And with that in mind, I did a quick online search on the matter and found Jane Fonda's website which contains a blog entry from 2011 where she recounts events of that day and as Paul Harvey was famous for saying (paraphrasing), tells her side of the story.

    I'm in no way taking her side or saying folks should forgive her. But what I am saying is read her words, try to see things from her perspective and understand where she was coming from at the time and maybe some perspectives will change. Then again, maybe some won't because the mental and emotional wounds are just too great. And that's okay. But as my mentor, Stephen A. Covey, is fond of saying, "Seek first to understand and then to be understood". That's all I'm saying.

    The Truth About My Trip To Hanoi | Jane Fonda
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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    Alinsky like most radical leftist used the poor to further their socialist agenda. They need the poor to gain political power.

    >" Born to Russian-Jewish parents in Chicago in 1909, Saul Alinsky was a Communist/Marxist fellow-traveler who helped establish the tactics of infiltration ......
    "....Alinsky did not join political parties. When asked during an interview whether he ever considered becoming a Communist party member, he replied:

    Not at any time. I've never joined any organization—not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide...."
    Saul Alinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Its interesting that leftists are criticized as un-democratic subversive revolutionaries when they work outside of the mainstream political system, but then get criticized as being subversive infiltrators when they work within the system and with an establshed political political party.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 11-09-13 at 06:01 PM.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Is there precedent for posing with enemy combatants being categorized as treason? So if, today, an American civilian traveled to Pakistan, posed with one arm around a member of Al Qaeda and with his other hand gave a thumbs up sign while grinning, but didn't take part in any military action or transfer military secrets helping Al Qaeda, would that legally be defined as treason?

    It's the precedent question I'm particularly interested in, though.

    I know if somebody is able to successfully answer that in the affirmative that Gaugingreate will probably do a five hour end zone dance, but well those are just the chances one takes.
    Since the post 9/11 Bush-Obama loss of limits on the powers of military and intelligence agencies, there wouldn't be a trial or any discussion of whether that action amounts to treason, he would be killed by a drone or taken to a secret prison and given a military mock trial at best. The anti-Jane Fonda faction won and got their way. Not with Fonda herself, but by influencing current policy.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 11-09-13 at 06:01 PM.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    "....Alinsky did not join political parties. When asked during an interview whether he ever considered becoming a Communist party member, he replied:

    Not at any time. I've never joined any organization—not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide...."
    Saul Alinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Its interesting that leftists are criticized as un-democratic subversive revolutionaries when they work outside of the mainstream political system, but then get criticized as being subversive infiltrators when they work within the system and with an established political political party.
    Who said that Alinsky belonged to any political party ? You could say he was an independent who leaned heavily to the left.

    It's that Marxist, todays progressives, etc. uses Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" as a guide book. Even Obama used it to get elected, it works on the uninformed and the misinformed and especially with stupid people.

    BTW: Wikipedia isn't really a reliable source when it comes to politics and political figures. A lot of bias editing and reediting and reediting the reedited. In fact the Wiki article on Alinsky was been called a editing war that's been going on.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Precedent is crucial because "aid and comfort" are vague terms. What is "cruel and unusual"? As vague as "aid and comfort" are, you could argue that libertarians and conservatives arguing for the secession of Texas weakens us as a union and therefore gives Al Qaeda strength (and therefore aid and comfort) over us.
    Participating in propaganda is giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

    Joan Baez is more guilty of treason than Jane Fonda. I can't wait for that bitch to die, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    If words meant exactly what they said there wouldn't be the need for Supreme Court cases in order to decide if something was constitutional. More on that point: Presidents both right and left wouldn't appoint people to the Supreme Court to interpret the constitution as they themselves understand it. And finally, if words meant exactly what they said there wouldn't be over twenty thousand denominations of Christianity. So the idea that "aid and abet" is immune to interpretation is beyond silly. And that's why I asked for a legal precedent, because treason in this case is a legal term and without precedent to cite all anyone's going to do here is toss out their opinions, and frankly I'm not interested in those.
    Have you not read anything I've written?

    Treason is a crime. You do not ask for "precedent" on the fact pattern when trying a crime. "Precedent" is irrelevant. Do the facts fulfill the elements or not? The jury decides. You do not EVER need to cite earlier cases with similar fact patterns. That is not a concern at the trial level. If jury decides the facts fulfill the elements, then they do.
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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I'm not a Vietnam veteran, so I admit I've never fully understood what all the fuse was about over Jane Fonda's visit to N. Vietnam or the photos that were taken of her amongst the N. VC troops. Part of me understands the impression she left, certainly. But there's another side that always believed perhaps there was another side to the story folks either didn't know, didn't want to know (because of their hatred for the war along with their personal emotional investment in the war, i.e., they fought in it, knew someone who went over their or lost a friend or loved one).

    Now, call me a liberal if you wish, but as I said since I'm not of that era nor am I a Vietnam vet I don't claim to fully understand the emotional fall out that resonates with Vietnam vets to this day. Nonetheless, I have tried to learn about this moment in time and seek to understand from the Vietnam vet's point of view why her visit and subsequent photo shot still leaves a bitter taste in their mouths. And with that in mind, I did a quick online search on the matter and found Jane Fonda's website which contains a blog entry from 2011 where she recounts events of that day and as Paul Harvey was famous for saying (paraphrasing), tells her side of the story.

    I'm in no way taking her side or saying folks should forgive her. But what I am saying is read her words, try to see things from her perspective and understand where she was coming from at the time and maybe some perspectives will change. Then again, maybe some won't because the mental and emotional wounds are just too great. And that's okay. But as my mentor, Stephen A. Covey, is fond of saying, "Seek first to understand and then to be understood". That's all I'm saying.

    The Truth About My Trip To Hanoi | Jane Fonda
    Should we look at things from the perspective of a concentration camp guard, too? The Gastapo? The KGB? Jeffery Dalmer? Ted Kazinski? The Khmer Rouge?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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