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Thread: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Pretty much. Can you name some of the US backed dictators from the same period? I can: Mobutu, Barre, Banda, Eyadema, Boigny, El-Sadat, Smith, Selassie, Tubman, Franco, Oliviera, Osorio, Duvalier. That's just off the top of my head. The premise that we "cared" about the "freedom" of the Vietnamese people is absolutely ignorant. We cared about them having a pro-US government willing to sell off its country to the biggest game in town. We didn't care about them being free. To claim the opposite in the face of the evidence available is ridiculous. We supported dictators. We allowed them to massacre their own people as long as US companies had access to resources.
    We were fighting Communist expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Pretty much. Can you name some of the US backed dictators from the same period? I can: Mobutu, Barre, Banda, Eyadema, Boigny, El-Sadat, Smith, Selassie, Tubman, Franco, Oliviera, Osorio, Duvalier. That's just off the top of my head. The premise that we "cared" about the "freedom" of the Vietnamese people is absolutely ignorant. We cared about them having a pro-US government willing to sell off its country to the biggest game in town. We didn't care about them being free. To claim that in the face of the evidence available is ridiculous.
    Wow, you can name a bunch of obscure dictators, gee whiz, you must automatically win, then...here, let me give you a free ticket too...its not good for anything, but guess what... it's free.

    I would say your Zinnish views show a liberal education, which indicates an over-education into what is not true... as a wise man once said, "Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." ...or in this case, not really applicable.

    Why not name the [now] democracies we rebuilt, gave expertise to, funded, defended, still defend. South Korea ring any bells [ what have we gotten out of that? ]... you avoided telling me what we wanted in Vietnam so bad... the thought escape you perhaps, or is it tactical avoidance? What about Japan after WW2... or Turkey when the Brits could not handle it after the war, handed the baton over to us, and Truman then asked Congress for a cool $400 mil, sounds like chump change now, to fund Turkey and Greece from falling under communist control that was threatening... what did we get out of that?

    How about the $13 bil, again chumpish sounding nowadays, to rebuild Western Europe... how many dictators did we install? There is no doubt that the US plays a power international game, none either that we have interests, but to think we are not on the side of freedom and liberties, individual rights... beyond being pretty cynical its pretty small thinking... don't have time to study real history? Local library out of good solid books? They giving a discount to take Zinn-style hate-America-for-no-real reason classes these days?

    Why not educate us on all those leaders you speak of, tell us what our other alternatives might have been, of all the angels just waiting in the wings to run things smoothly and fairly in some godforsaken parts of the world where things are not run like we like them to be, but where we have to deal with it, where we have enemies from all sides, some funded by those pesky commies...
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No she didn't. Those POWs themselves said that story was fake.
    You ever hear John McCains story?

    He was being tortured while "the new left" (or progressives) were protesting the war.... Now they still hate him, just because he has "republican ideas."

    All the progs of the day were just pro-communism and OWS was nothing more than a reunion...

  4. #134
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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    Yea, you are brilliant, thanks for the enlightenment.
    Not a problem, I specialize in flat liners, so if you know anybody needing similar enlightenment, don't be afraid to give me a nudge.
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

  5. #135
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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Why not name the [now] democracies we rebuilt. South Korea ring any bells [ what have we gotten out of that? ]...
    This democracy?

    Park Chung-hee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Park seized power through a military coup d'état that overthrew the Korean Second Republic in 1961 and ruled as an unelected military strongman at the head of the Supreme Council for National Reconstruction until his election and inauguration as the President of the Korean Third Republic in 1963. In 1972, Park declared martial law, suspended the country's constitution and made himself President for Life while ushering in the Korean Fourth Republic. Despite surviving several assassination attempts, including two operations by agents of North Korea, Park was eventually assassinated on 26 October 1979 by Kim Jae-gyu, the chief of his own security services.[1] He had led South Korea for 18 years.

    ....

    In July 1966 South Korea and the United States signed a Status of Forces Agreement establishing a more equal relationship between the two countries. With its growing economic strength and the security guarantee of the United States, the threat of a conventional invasion from North Korea seemed increasingly remote.
    Yep... sounds just like a democracy we helped "rebuild".

    How about the $13 bil, again chumpish sounding nowadays, to rebuild Western Europe... how many dictators did we install?
    Who said we installed them? We backed dictators. Here's a famous one:

    Francisco Franco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Franco went on to rule Spain for nearly forty years.[2] He was able to hold on to power by playing off the diverse political factions of the state against one another and through his control over the armed forces while firmly repressing enemies.

    ...

    This situation ended in part when, due to Spain's strategic location in light of Cold War tensions, the United States entered into a trade and military alliance with Spain as part of the policy of containment. This historic alliance commenced with the signing of the Pact of Madrid in 1953 which guaranteed American support for Franco's regime.
    you avoided telling me what we wanted in Vietnam so bad..
    The same thing we wanted in the Philippines by supporting the Aquinos - pro-US governments that wouldn't have an issue selling cheap resources to the US. Again, the Cold War was about money. The Russians didn't care about "freedom" either. They cared about trade and pro-USSR governments even if it came at the cost of millions dying.

    Why not educate us on all those leaders you speak of...
    I already have. Your nearly illiterate understanding of cold war politics is shinning through. Now, I know names like "Franco" and "Park" sound "obscure" to somebody who has never even taken a course in basic Cold War politics, but it's really hard to argue that "Vietnamese freedom" was important when we couldn't have cared less about the other 100-300 million people living under US backed dictatorships. Again, that you don't know them - doesn't mean they weren't there. Then again, I can't blame you for not knowing them. You actually believe the Cold War was about morality.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 11-08-13 at 08:01 PM.
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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    Come on SMTA, are you going to deny that the anti-war movement in America didn't prolong America's involvement in the Vietnam war ?

    And Jane Fonda like the "New Left" weren't against the Vietnam war. They were against the United States winning in Vietnam. Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, the SDS, Weather Underground, Communist Party USA were all on the side of North Vietnam, they wanted the communist to win that war.
    Tell me where I said anything like that.
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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This democracy?

    Park Chung-hee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    Yep... sounds just like a democracy we helped "rebuild".



    Who said we installed them? We backed dictators. Here's a famous one:

    Francisco Franco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





    The same thing we wanted in the Philippines by supporting the Aquinos - pro-US governments that wouldn't have an issue selling cheap resources to the US. Again, the Cold War was about money. The Russians didn't care about "freedom" either. They cared about trade and pro-USSR governments even if it came at the cost of millions dying.



    I already have. Your nearly illiterate understanding of cold war politics is shinning through. Now, I know names like "Franco" and "Park" sound "obscure" to somebody who has never even taken a course in basic Cold War politics, but it's really hard to argue that "Vietnamese freedom" was important when we couldn't have cared less about the other 100-300 million people living under US backed dictatorships. Again, that you don't know them - doesn't mean they weren't there. Then again, I can't blame you for not knowing them. You actually believe the Cold War was about morality.
    Seriously?

    Do you understand the concept of authoritarianism or do you think it's just a "right wing" idea...

    You do realize authoritarianism comes in all shapes and sizes of loony bin insanity?

    Do I really need to start talking about Gulags? - you progressives act like communism is some sort of fun, and it's all about "sharing" - when it's not - It's all about murdering or locking up anyone who doesn't agree with you.

    You want to throw me in a prison because I have the audacity to disagree with your politics?

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    Wouldn't that be didi ?
    I don't know what that means.

  9. #139
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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Seriously?

    Do you understand the concept of authoritarianism or do you think it's just a "right wing" idea...
    If you took a reading comprehension class, you wouldn't ask such a question. Read my post again - here, this part will help you:

    The Russians didn't care about "freedom" either. They cared about trade and pro-USSR governments even if it came at the cost of millions dying.
    The rest of your post is just more of your ramblings based on the fact you can't seem to properly understand what it is you're reading.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    Tell me where I said anything like that.
    When you said >"I have never seen any credible evidence where she caused deaths."<

    Jane Fonda was one of the socialist leaders of the anti war movement.

    The anti-war movement prolonged the war in Vietnam.

    Even John Kerry is credited for delaying the Paris Peace Talks for a few days when he showed up in Paris and unlawfully met with North Vietnamese government officials which resulted in the war to continue a little longer where more Americans were killed in Vietnam.

    There have been more than a few North Vietnamese government officials and military leaders who after the war have acknowledged that the anti-war movement played a significant amount with helping North Vietnam to keep fighting after their biggest military defeat known as the Tet Offense of 1968.

    So significant that an entire wall at the war memorial museum in Hanoi is dedicated to the anti-war movement in America. And on that wall are the photos of "Hanoi" Jane Fonda and John Kerry.

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