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Thread: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Pretending my spin to be true? You do understand that the cold war wasn't ideological right? The ideological battle of the USSR and the USA is the Disney version they sell the weak minded. Everyone else understands that it was a war to establish spheres of economic influence.
    Yes, spin. "we went in there to defend our economic interests. 58,000 people died so McDonald's could set up shop in Vietnam". That is beyond silly. Did the -ist that pounded that into your head keep a straight face when getting you to take a bite of it?



    Maintaining - favorable to the US - trade with the region, surrounding Japan with pro-West allies in the case of war with Russia/China. The belief that we went to fight for freedom is so far removed to how things in the real world work it's absolutely ridiculous people still buy into the jingoist Eisenhower-Kennedy-Nixon rhetoric.
    Aw, so now it wasn't just the US economic interests as the cause of our involvement? And do you mean war with the USSR and China or just either one of them? You also didn't mention FDR, Truman and LBJ even though they had a say in the region, why is that?
    You and I will probably never agree on much. But a recent book about the Vietnam conflict is a good read for everyone regardless of which side of the political fence the sit on. Embers of War. It explains a lot of what went on and why going far beyond the entire thing happening over a Big Mac and an order of fries.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    He's a leftist, you know how it works, "Do as I say not as I do."

    A white beard scratching liberal has already redefined the definition of the word "queer" and if your not a leftist it's not politically correct to use that word or a thousands of other words and phrases in the name of revisionism.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I am with Navy Pride on this. I will never forgive her for what she did in Viet Nam.

    That being said, my thoughts are in direct conflict with Christian theology and the teachings of the Catholic Church. As is his.

    Consider this, the Apostle Paul, (formally known as Saul,) done things far worse than anything Hanoi Jane could ever do. Yet, upon his repentance, he became on of the most admired apostles in Christianity.

    "Jane Fonda realizes that she made a serious mistake in 1972 when she had a little sing-along with North Vietnamese soldiers while sitting on an anti-aircraft gun that may have shot down some of our American boys. According to an April 3 article on Newsmax, Jane Fonda admitted on the Oprah Winfrey Network (OWN) that she will go to her grave with this “unforgivable mistake.” <snip> 'Hanoi Jane' Fonda says she will go to her grave with her 'unforgivable mistake' - Knoxville Politics | Examiner.com

    Forgiving her would be the Christian thing to do. Far be it from me or Mr. Pride to do the Christian thing.
    You are correct. But I'll take my chances explaining to God on why I won't.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    You and I will probably never agree on much. But a recent book about the Vietnam conflict is a good read for everyone regardless of which side of the political fence the sit on. Embers of War. It explains a lot of what went on and why going far beyond the entire thing happening over a Big Mac and an order of fries.
    Care to explain since the Big Mac didn't come out until 68.

    That's all I thought about when eating Lima Beans and Mother ##### for 13 months, eating a Big Mac.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    You and I will probably never agree on much. But a recent book about the Vietnam conflict is a good read for everyone regardless of which side of the political fence the sit on. Embers of War. It explains a lot of what went on and why going far beyond the entire thing happening over a Big Mac and an order of fries.
    If your best response to my statements was "that's silly" and some question about why I didn't mention other presidents, of course we won't be seeing eye to eye. I didn't mention FDR, Turman or LBJ because with the exception of LBJ, Truman and FDR had little to do with the military side of the Vietnam war. They kept us removed from that theater and let the French solve their own mess. When the French ****ed off like surrender monkeys, the US took an attitude of "we can't let communism make money off these guys!" - The US' relations with former European colonies has been one of economic interest. We have never cared about the freedom of people in those countries as long as we can make a buck off them.

    I'm perfectly fine with that. It made my country great. Just don't try to sell the bull**** that we honestly gave a **** about a few 3rd world peasants.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    The photograph incident is the one that I'm interested, so let's look at that according to your source.



    Nothing is more emblematic of Jane Fonda’s trip to Hanoi—nothing has caused her to be more justly scorned—than the photographs (there are several, taken moments apart) of a blissful Fonda sitting atop a 37 mm North Vietnamese antiaircraft gun surrounded by reporters and a gun crew. In the version we used on the cover of "Aid and Comfort," Fonda is looking through the gun sight at an imaginary American plane, her face ecstatic, her hands folded almost in prayer. If there was anything about her trip to Hanoi that Fonda needed to lie about, it is this photo op.

    This is important, and strikes me as being anti-American to a particularly worrying extent. Gleefully looking through the sites of a AA gun "at imaginary American planes" gives me the impression that she's not just innocently anti-war, but anti-American. Just one problem: I can't find such a photograph. Everything I've been able to uncover on Google Image Search just shows the photographs where she's listening to others sing, singing herself, and her hands are either clasped in her lap or up near her face in delight while the translator (according to her) translates the pro-liberty lyrics. If anybody can provide this photograph clearly showing her looking through the sites I'd appreciate it. If this photo exists, that would shatter most illusions of her meeting with enemy civilians in order to demonstrate that they're people too, which makes complete sense if you're anti-war. It's a lot of what being anti-war is about.


    So she does: According to her memoir, she arrived at Hanoi’s airport. Her hosts briefly went over the itinerary for her visit. "I noticed that the trip to an antiaircraft installation is still on the agenda for the last day, despite my message [a "pretrip letter"] from Los Angeles saying I was not interested in military installations. I tell them that I don’t want to keep that visit on the agenda."


    Does such a letter even exist? No evidence in her autobiography is provided to support its existence.

    It's really just her word versus the word of others. Concluding that she made it up is mind reading, which, sadly, a lot of this section of your article consists of.


    In fact, when her itinerary was published in a Congressional Hearing Report [which we reprinted in full in Aid and Comfort], there was no entry that scheduled a visit to any antiaircraft installation. A reasonable person would conclude that she made up the entire story of her "pretrip" demurral, along with so much else.

    No, not a "reasonable person," but one who has already decided on the narrative they want to believe.


    And even though she claims to have noticed the itinerary item practically from the moment her feet touched the ground, Fonda acquiesced in the AAA visit because, as she writes, "Altering the plans [not scheduled for another two weeks!] appears to cause consternation. Decisions have been made. I am too tired to protest." Still, she decides, "I am going." Lots of Americans, she writes, are taken to military installations; lots of them have to wear helmets. And since such Americans were anti-Americans who believed their country was the "imperialist aggressor" in Vietnam, lots of them had beatific expressions on their face when they sat in gun turrets designed to kill their own countrymen.

    Sarcasm seems a weak replacement for facts here.


    As she arrives at an antiaircraft gun installation on the outskirts of Hanoi and sees a weapon used to shoot down American aircraft, Fonda purports to be surprised at "a horde of photographers and journalists." (Sure, a Hollywood star is surprised to see cameras at a showpiece event that has been set up for her!)

    Mind reading.


    The Communist soldiers sing. Fonda’s translator translates: "All men are created equal. They are given certain rights; among these are life, liberty and happiness." (We are not making this up.) Fonda is so moved by this musical version of our Declaration of Independence that "I begin to cry and clap. These young men should not be our enemy. They celebrate the same words Americans do." [Emphasis is Fonda’s]


    One good performance deserves another. The AAA gunners ask Fonda to reciprocate with a song of her own. Somehow Fonda has managed to anticipate this request before leaving the United States. She has memorized in Vietnamese a song written by South Vietnamese and antiwar activists -- i.e., supporters of the Communist propaganda offensive. "Everyone laughs and claps, including me," she writes.
    The performance is over. "Someone, I don’t remember who, leads me toward the gun, and I sit down, still applauding. It all has nothing to do with where I am sitting. I hardly even think about where I am sitting." Give us a break.

    I admit this looks kind of iffy. But looking bad and being bad aren't the same thing.


    These three sentences are the only explanation in some 600 pages of Fonda’s autobiography of why she provided the North Vietnamese Communists with a propaganda picture worth, not the proverbial thousand words, but rather thousands of American and Vietnamese lives.

    This is the the writer's own conclusions mixed in with some mind reading and hyperbole (concluding without quantifying how this photo ope resulted in the loss of thousands of American lives.


    As Fonda walks away, we are asked to believe that the implications of her conduct suddenly dawned on her. She writes, "Oh my God. It’s going to look like I was trying to shoot down America planes." [Emphasis Fonda’s] Not really, Jane. It looks just like you thought that shooting down American planes was a fantastic idea, which is evident from everything else you did and said in Vietnam and in respect to the war before and after.

    Mind reading.


    She claims, preposterously,

    Isn't this just Gonzo writing at this point?


    in her autobiography that she pleaded with her translator to make sure her hosts saw to it that the potentially embarrassing photographs were not published. If this is true, how come she didn’t protest the pictures when they were published? How come it took her twenty years to "apologize" for embarrassing herself (which was the extent of her apology)?

    I don't like accusations that disguise themselves as questions. It's lazy. Neither you or I know why it took her twenty years to apologize. It can be as innocent or insidious as you please.


    This self-serving assertion

    Gonzo writing.


    is of course belied by the fact that she went to the gun emplacement installation in the first place and allowed herself to be photographed – for what purpose? Home entertainment?

    Sarcasm, mind reading, accusations disguised as questions...it has no place in an article meant to be taken seriously.


    Thirty-three years later comes this grudging (and embarrassing and not credible) admission: "It is possible that the Vietnamese had it all planned." [Emphasis ours] But, she continues, "can I really blame them?"

    Ugh...not going to even try defending her here.


    And besides, Fonda adds as an afterthought: "the gun was inactive, there were no planes overhead." In what reality is this woman living?

    It sounds to me like she was saying that the gun at that moment wasn't being fired and at that moment that there were no planes overhead. I don't think she was claiming qualification to know whether or not the gun had been decommissioned.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    The photograph incident is the one that I'm interested, so let's look at that according to your source.




    This is important, and strikes me as being anti-American to a particularly worrying extent. Gleefully looking through the sites of a AA gun "at imaginary American planes" gives me the impression that she's not just innocently anti-war, but anti-American. Just one problem: I can't find such a photograph. Everything I've been able to uncover on Google Image Search just shows the photographs where she's listening to others sing, singing herself, and her hands are either clasped in her lap or up near her face in delight while the translator (according to her) translates the pro-liberty lyrics. If anybody can provide this photograph clearly showing her looking through the sites I'd appreciate it. If this photo exists, that would shatter most illusions of her meeting with enemy civilians in order to demonstrate that they're people too, which makes complete sense if you're anti-war. It's a lot of what being anti-war is about.

    .
    jane fonda sitting on gun - Bing Images

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    "The now-75-year-old actress has since apologized for what she told Oprah Winfrey was an "unforgivable mistake" made in 1972."
    You're pretty judgemental.
    She was an adult woman, beneficiary of what could be considered some of the very best of America, had the world by the 'nads... then she overstepped. Purposely. The far left loved/love her, no doubt... but the then absolutely gorgeous lady made her thorny bed all by herself.

    Isn't not calling a spade a spade, when comes right down to it, just deceiving oneself? Besides, we are human, we judge... the best we can hope for is to judge sensibly, judiciously. And, truthfully, I have yet to see here any definitively untrue portrayals of her actions in concert with, and in, Vietnam.

    She had consequences, she had to know that. Apologize she surely should, does not mend the deep rips she created...

    I wasn't there, but I don't forgive her, either. I mean, it would be like she had to be an idiot... I have heard her speak, she is no idiot, this was all conscious.
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    Oh.

    **** this, I'm out of here.

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    re: America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' [W:306]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    She was an adult woman, beneficiary of what could be considered some of the very best of America, had the world by the 'nads... then she overstepped. Purposely. The far left loved/love her, no doubt... but the then absolutely gorgeous lady made her thorny bed all by herself.

    Isn't not calling a spade a spade, when comes right down to it, just deceiving oneself? Besides, we are human, we judge... the best we can hope for is to judge sensibly, judiciously. And, truthfully, I have yet to see here any definitively untrue portrayals of her actions in concert with, and in, Vietnam.

    She had consequences, she had to know that. Apologize she surely should, does not mend the deep rips she created...

    I wasn't there, but I don't forgive her, either. I mean, it would be like she had to be an idiot... I have heard her speak, she is no idiot, this was all conscious.
    Socialists tend to put their politics before the welfare of their country and its people. It's just what they do.b There were millions of Jane Fonda and still are. She was just one of the more famous.

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