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Obama's health promises backfire

cpwill said:
That is historically objectively false. Liberalism as an ideology meant something very different prior to the early 20th Century. When Progressivism got a bad public flavor, they switched to calling themselves "Liberals" mostly because no one else was really using the name, and worked for them. Dewey, in particular, was a big advocate of redefining "Liberal" from its' previous arguments for minimal necessary government, free trade, and individual autonomy.
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Your OPINION noted and discarded. I can understand why you think that way since you think conservatism = all good and liberalism = all bad.
 
zimmer said:
blah blah blah blah
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Not saying Obama lied about this is NOT defending Obama or his policies. I have stated flat out that no matter what he is responsible for the people he put in charge of getting the ACA rolled out.

You have this idea that if I don't believe YOUR rhetoric of "he lied" that somehow means I am FOR Obama and FOR the ACA. That is a fallacy on your part, not mine. I also don't believe he is a super secret Muslim hell bent on destsroying America, so in your eyes that must mean I agree with him and his policies :roll:

Grow up.
 
TheNextEra said:
In the past yes, conservatism was what kept kids in the factories.
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Wow, conservatism kept kids in greasy, dirty, smokey factories, huh? That's just astounding. They probably fed them dirty food and water too, eh?
 
American said:
Wow, conservatism kept kids in greasy, dirty, smokey factories, huh? That's just astounding. They probably fed them dirty food and water too, eh?
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Yes and I'm sure you think conservatism does NO wrong.
 
American said:
Just like you think liberalism and libertarianism are utopian ideologies.
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No I don't think liberalism is perfect and I even stated examples of it going to far (i.e. gun control, soda size bans, etc). You on the other hand have not said one damn thing bad about conservatism that I've seen here. Both conservatism and liberalism are needed in a successful country.

Care to show us the faults of conservatism or do you truly believe there aren't any?
 
TheNextEra said:
No I don't think liberalism is perfect and I even stated examples of it going to far (i.e. gun control, soda size bans, etc). You on the other hand have not said one damn thing bad about conservatism that I've seen here. Both conservatism and liberalism are needed in a successful country.

Care to show us the faults of conservatism or do you truly believe there aren't any?
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Sure, when you start a thread on that. I was responding to the preposterous notion that conservatives make children work in factories and maybe even feed them rat poison and dirty water for lunch. The whole stereotype you're trying to thrust on people like me is rejected.
 
TheNextEra said:
Your OPINION noted and discarded. I can understand why you think that way since you think conservatism = all good and liberalism = all bad.
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He's actually reciting history to you. There isn't any opinion there. The Progressive movement took a HUGE public opinion hit following WWII as many of the Progressive movements glitterati were Soviet and Nazi sympathizers before the war. The ideology was much the same as the growing socialist movements in Europe at the time, but felt the US was not ready for the kind of wholesale change happening in Russia and Germany. Therefor they hatched the "Progressive" movement that was meant to move the US incrementally towards the same ultimate goals.

But following the outcome of the Third Reich, and the growing conflict between the Soviets and the US, as well as the collapse of the Eugenics movement in the US, "progressive" became a dirty word. They co-opted the name "Liberal", and they carried many of the same ideologies with them. Abortion rights is nothing more than the Remanence of the Eugenics movement, pushed by all the same Eugenics supporters right through Roe-v-Wade.

Maafa 21
 
American said:
Sure, when you start a thread on that. I was responding to the preposterous notion that conservatives make children work in factories and maybe even feed them rat poison and dirty water for lunch. The whole stereotype you're trying to thrust on people like me is rejected.
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Sorry, but it is fact that conservatism allowed for the children to work in factories. I never stated any of the further idiocracies you listed, but sorry you don't like the fact conservatism isn't perfect.
 
jmotivator said:
He's actually reciting history to you. There isn't any opinion there. The Progressive movement took a HUGE public opinion hit following WWII as many of the Progressive movements glitterati were Soviet and Nazi sympathizers before the war. The ideology was much the same as the growing socialist movements in Europe at the time, but felt the US was not ready for the kind of wholesale change happening in Russia and Germany. Therefor they hatched the "Progressive" movement that was meant to move the US incrementally towards the same ultimate goals.

But following the outcome of the Third Reich, and the growing conflict between the Soviets and the US, as well as the collapse of the Eugenics movement in the US, "progressive" became a dirty word. They co-opted the name "Liberal", and they carried many of the same ideologies with them. Abortion rights is nothing more than the Remanence of the Eugenics movement, pushed by all the same Eugenics supporters right through Roe-v-Wade.

Maafa 21
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All of that would be fine and dandy if I were arguing that liberal good, conservative bad, but I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing against that conservatism is good and liberalism bad. I'm well aware that BOTH liberalism and conservatism have their ugly points in history as well as good.

My whole argument is that liberalism AND conservatism are needed for a successful country. Next time you want to chime in, at least know what the argument is.
 
TheNextEra said:
Sorry, but it is fact that conservatism allowed for the children to work in factories. I never stated any of the further idiocracies you listed, but sorry you don't like the fact conservatism isn't perfect.
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Have I proclaimed it to be perfect? Find the post anywhere.
 
American said:
Have I proclaimed it to be perfect? Find the post anywhere.
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Where did I claim you actually said it was perfect? Try again, you'll get the hang of it sooner or later since you want to play word games.
 
TheNextEra said:
All of that would be fine and dandy if I were arguing that liberal good, conservative bad, but I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing against that conservatism is good and liberalism bad. I'm well aware that BOTH liberalism and conservatism have their ugly points in history as well as good.

My whole argument is that liberalism AND conservatism are needed for a successful country. Next time you want to chime in, at least know what the argument is.
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You claimed a clear statement about the history of Liberalism was "opinion". It wasn't. It was fact.
 
jmotivator said:
You claimed a clear statement about the history of Liberalism was "opinion". It wasn't. It was fact.
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No, the interpretation was in fact OPINION and not fact.
 
jmotivator said:
He's actually reciting history to you. There isn't any opinion there. The Progressive movement took a HUGE public opinion hit following WWII as many of the Progressive movements glitterati were Soviet and Nazi sympathizers before the war. The ideology was much the same as the growing socialist movements in Europe at the time, but felt the US was not ready for the kind of wholesale change happening in Russia and Germany. Therefor they hatched the "Progressive" movement that was meant to move the US incrementally towards the same ultimate goals.

But following the outcome of the Third Reich, and the growing conflict between the Soviets and the US, as well as the collapse of the Eugenics movement in the US, "progressive" became a dirty word. They co-opted the name "Liberal", and they carried many of the same ideologies with them. Abortion rights is nothing more than the Remanence of the Eugenics movement, pushed by all the same Eugenics supporters right through Roe-v-Wade.

Maafa 21
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Quite right. And the propaganda of those days are still being taught today. Even now, despite the collapse of the USSR (though not of the idea of communism) and the releasing of the Venona Papers, there are still millions of Americans who believe their country was the bad guy in all of these Cold War confrontations despite the tens of millions of deaths committed by the communists. This propaganda lives on with the idea that 'liberals' fought for freedoms while the conservatives denied them.
 
TheNextEra said:
Your OPINION noted and discarded.
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:lol: its not an opinion - it's basic history, dude.

The unwillingness of the Left to study their own intellectual history never ceases to amaze me. As a conservative, I'm really interested in conservative intellectual history, but man, for some reason pre-1950 no liberal wants to talk about it. Go read Dewey's "The Future of Liberalism", where he is very explicit about the fact that he is changing "Liberalism" into a new creation from the "old liberalism" (which was bad, and let people run around free doing whatever they wanted and therefore failing) and the "New Liberalism" (which was good because it involved direction by experts so that people would be provided for and kept from making self-destructive decisions). He very deliberately and explicitly took the Liberalism of the 18th and 19th Centuries, which was built around negative rights, and flipped it on its head.

Why do you think that the Liberal Party in Britain was the one that went around preaching free trade and all that?

I can understand why you think that way since you think conservatism = all good and liberalism = all bad.
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That is false. For example, in Europe conservatism has typically been the famous "Throne and Church" model, whose premises I reject. In the U.S., Conservatism has been dedicated (generally) to preserving the Classic Liberalism of our Founding, while modern liberalism (formerly and sometimes now as well Progressivism) has been dedicated (generally) to arguing that Classic Liberalism is inadequate because it lacks a strong central guiding competent authority.
 
TheNextEra said:
You again are making the falacy of thinking Dem = Liberal and Republican = conservatism. That is flat out false, we are talking liberalism and conservatism here. Conservatives fought to keep blacks and women from voting, liberals did not.

Keep up son, you're failing.
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Some people just strive to remain ignorant, and others do it with ease.
 
TheNextEra said:
You again are making the falacy of thinking Dem = Liberal and Republican = conservatism. That is flat out false, we are talking liberalism and conservatism here. Conservatives fought to keep blacks and women from voting, liberals did not.

Keep up son, you're failing.
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TheNextEra said:
Not saying Obama lied about this is NOT defending Obama or his policies. I have stated flat out that no matter what he is responsible for the people he put in charge of getting the ACA rolled out.

You have this idea that if I don't believe YOUR rhetoric of "he lied" that somehow means I am FOR Obama and FOR the ACA. That is a fallacy on your part, not mine. I also don't believe he is a super secret Muslim hell bent on destsroying America, so in your eyes that must mean I agree with him and his policies :roll:

Grow up.
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You state one thing and then backtrack... that's why you did what you did when quoting my post.
You couldn't let it stand as an example of revealing your inconsistencies.
 
TheNextEra said:
You again are making the falacy of thinking Dem = Liberal and Republican = conservatism. That is flat out false, we are talking liberalism and conservatism here. Conservatives fought to keep blacks and women from voting, liberals did not.

Keep up son, you're failing.
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Ignoring the education offered you I see about Blacks, women's rights and the Republican record.
As you were.
 
TheNextEra said:
You again are making the falacy of thinking Dem = Liberal and Republican = conservatism. That is flat out false, we are talking liberalism and conservatism here. Conservatives fought to keep blacks and women from voting, liberals did not.

Keep up son, you're failing.
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TheNextEra said:
No I don't think liberalism is perfect and I even stated examples of it going to far (i.e. gun control, soda size bans, etc). You on the other hand have not said one damn thing bad about conservatism that I've seen here. Both conservatism and liberalism are needed in a successful country.

Care to show us the faults of conservatism or do you truly believe there aren't any?
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What is to fault about Conservatism, a philosophy that embraces human rights, equality under the law, and limited government. Unlike Libs who strive for equality of results, keep minorities and women down even when their programs have proven themselves to be miserable failures, and class warfare to name a few of the jewels in the Libs Crown.

What are the redeeming qualities of being a Lib? Certainly not open mindedness. You illustrated that earlier.
 
zimmer said:
Ignoring the education offered you I see about Blacks, women's rights and the Republican record.
As you were.
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And as they always will be. Again we see those who define themselves as 'liberal' ignoring facts, ignoring history and remaining, despite all the evidence to the contrary, in a cemented point of view.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
"You like your insurance you can keep it"

"Read my lips, no new taxes"
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This is one of these rare times that I agree with you. However, when Bush Sr. said "read my lips", he meant it at the time, but circumstances made him reevaluate his position. However, there is sufficient evidence that Obama knew that some people would not be able to keep their insurance when he said they could keep it if they liked it. Obama lied in order to pass the ACA. And to all of you who are about to call me a right wing hack for posting this, I have no axe to grind for either Democrats or Republicans. Hell, I actually signed up for Obamacare. But a lie is a lie, and I don't like it when a leader, either Republican or Democrat lies to me. I didn't like it when Bush lied, and I don't like it when Obama lies. My leaders need to be honest with me, or I do not respect them. Obama is a liar.

And Sawyer, you missed a quote....

Bill Clinton: "I did not have sex with that health plan". :mrgreen:
 
People will end up with insurance, though it may be different from what they had..
It may cost more, the same, or less depending on your circumstances..
My concern is now with the state-by state roll-out which should help, one at a time .
 
danarhea said:
This is one of these rare times that I agree with you. However, when Bush Sr. said "read my lips", he meant it at the time, but circumstances made him reevaluate his position. However, there is sufficient evidence that Obama knew that some people would not be able to keep their insurance when he said they could keep it if they liked it. Obama lied in order to pass the ACA. And to all of you who are about to call me a right wing hack for posting this, I have no axe to grind for either Democrats or Republicans. Hell, I actually signed up for Obamacare. But a lie is a lie, and I don't like it when a leader, either Republican or Democrat lies to me. I didn't like it when Bush lied, and I don't like it when Obama lies. My leaders need to be honest with me, or I do not respect them. Obama is a liar.

And Sawyer, you missed a quote....

Bill Clinton: "I did not have sex with that health plan". :mrgreen:
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I'm glad you agree with me, it's a good sign :lol: You and others missed my point a little bit though with that quote comparison. What I meant was "like your insurance you can keep it, period" will follow Obama and stick to him just like "read my lips" stuck to bush.
 
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