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Thread: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    The hyperbole that comes out of some people is astounding, not to mention the gross inaccuracy. For example the "announced withdraw date" while its true that by Dec 31st 2014 the majority of combat troops will be out of Afghanistan, its still unsure what level of troops will remain behind after that.

    I can't tell you how angry it makes me to see people twist themselves into whatever shape and opinion they need to have to criticize the President. There's no standards, no honesty.

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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    America is exceptional.

    I think that both Clinton and Obama, at best, are very reluctant American Exceptionalists.
    America is exceptional in the sense of being unique, but...

    Exceptional-ism is the perception that a country, society, or institution does not need to conform to normal rules or general principles because they believe themselves superior in some way.

    I'd say Clinton and Obama, like many before them, are very willing exceptionalists.
    In matters of style, swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    We don't have enough space and I don't have enough time to list everything, but thank you for asking.

    1. Toss the War Powers Act. Only Congress can declare war. Invading foreign lands are acts of war. Droning the people of other nations are acts of war. The point is that, per the Constitution only Congress can declare war. For various self-serving reasons Congress and the White House have subverted the Constitution for decades. That must end.

    2. Women should be required to register for Selective Service. (Actually, I favor conscription with NO, ZERO, exemptions for the sons and daughters of the rich and powerful. The point being war SHOULD BE a national sacrifice, currently it is not. If you want to go to war you must know that you will likely sacrifice and that the sacrifice may be great.)

    3. War taxes. I don't have specifics but corporations should not make huge profits as a result of armed conflict. Doing so and "owning" many members of Congress ensures a constant state of war. Killing people should not be good for business.

    4. The US should leave Afghanistan, Iraq and North Africa soonest. We have no business there. Let the region deal with the region. Let the region deal with Iran. Israel is not an American state. We give them more support than we give Puerto Rico. If Israel didn't have our promised physical and fiscal support they would be more encouraged to be a better neighbor in their regional community. No matter, we cannot have Israel's safety dictate US policy. The US needs to leave the region. If the US wants to sacrifice for Israel then everyone needs to face the reality of sacrifice. It must be palpable. See number 2.

    5. Declarations of war - by Congress - must have specific, clearly defined reasons. Iraq and Afghanistan are perfect examples of that. You cannot know when to leave if you don't have a realistic and well defined mission. The "War on Terror" is nothing more than marketing bull**** that ensures the perpetuation of America's involvement in armed conflict.

    6. Honor the nation's commitment to veterans. No more feel good yellow ribbon, flag waving, support the troops, invite a veteran to stand and wave at half-time horse sh*t, make the home folk feel good, garbage. In the consideration of war, realistic, long term costs related to veterans must be considered and/or debated in Congress openly and up front. The American People must know the long term costs of honoring their commitments to veterans and their families. Veterans deserve first rate assistance and services. Those things should be guaranteed BEFORE sending American men and women into the breech. Costs must be realistic and taxes must be agreed upon and levied as a consequence of declaring war.

    These are a few things off the top of my head. Most if not all of the above will not/would not be popular because they require real sacrifice for all Americans. And that is the over arching point. War is just too damned easy for most Americans.
    That is a good, strong post. Let me stew that over for a bit.
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    America is exceptional in the sense of being unique, but...

    Exceptional-ism is the perception that a country, society, or institution does not need to conform to normal rules or general principles because they believe themselves superior in some way.

    I'd say Clinton and Obama, like many before them, are very willing exceptionalists.
    I think there are many ideas regarding American exceptionalism other than what you indicate... much goes beyond that, somewhat includes that but sails right on past it. But, I suppose,your way then every country would be considered exceptional in some ways at some point in its history.

    We started a different way of doing it, plus we also seem quite good at it, had the blessings of two oceans of separation as well as weak neighbors allowing US an incubation stage coupled to a long growing stage unlike others...

    We have other blessings as well, resources, our openness and liberties have brought us incredible prosperity and freedoms from the many needs that many others still experience. We have, for the most part, a good-hearted people, tho not perfect by any means.

    I see a scant few others in world history even giving us much of a challenge for most exceptional exceptionalism.
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    America is exceptional.

    I think that both Clinton and Obama, at best, are very reluctant American Exceptionalists.
    oh please. "American exceptionalism" was fine when we were exceptional, now we're more "American dysfunctional" - hyperpartisanship abounds.

    Obama almost got us intot the middle of Syria, thankfully Kerry (another hawk -betraying his early days as vehemently anti-interventionist), managed to give the Russians an opening, to call off the missile strikes.

    A funny thing happened - Syria is complying with getting rid of the chem. weapons. I know, I know..it was all a brilliant gambit by Obama
    (insert sarcasm emoticon here).

    Obama has Susan Rice / Clapper/ Susan Power / and had Hillary Clinton in his appointed positions - all neo-cons; all interventionists.
    Last edited by annata; 11-03-13 at 05:59 PM.
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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    oh please. "American exceptionalism" was fine when we were exceptional, now we're more "American dysfunctional" - hyperpartisanship abounds.

    Obama almost got us intot the middle of Syria, thankfully Kerry (another hawk -betraying his early days as vehemently anti-interventionist), managed to give the Russians an opening, to call off the missile strikes.

    A funny thing happened - Syria is complying with getting rid of the chem. weapons. I know, I know..it was all a brilliant gambit by Obama
    (insert sarcasm emoticon here).

    Obama has Susan Rice / Clapper/ Susan Power / and had Hillary Clinton in his appointed positions - all neo-cons; all interventionists.
    Yeah, Obama played that just right, even without wetting his pants...I think Bill Clinton caught it just right when he said, 'He's Luckier Than A Dog With Two Dicks'.

    Ahhh, as regards exceptionalism, we are still pretty dang good, despite everything... can you think of even a close competitor to all the good we have brought to this planet? Might make for a good debate if you did.

    Why don't you define your terms, please... as I hardly think of Hillary when I think of the term neo-con, much less the others. After Woody Wilson got us all caught up in WWI, we have been inexorably pulled more and more into world affairs...I liked it better when we just intervened in this hemisphere, kept things cool on this side of the Pacific and Atlantic. But those halcyon days seem long past [ can almost here the Beatles tune Yesterday playing in the background ], nobody else has the super power ring and secret decoder set, just us. I think isolationism died with Pearl Harbor...and if not, with 9-11...

    Nostalgia is cool right up until we get attacked again.
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Yeah, Obama played that just right, even without wetting his pants...I think Bill Clinton caught it just right when he said, 'He's Luckier Than A Dog With Two Dicks'.

    Ahhh, as regards exceptionalism, we are still pretty dang good, despite everything... can you think of even a close competitor to all the good we have brought to this planet? Might make for a good debate if you did.

    Why don't you define your terms, please... as I hardly think of Hillary when I think of the term neo-con, much less the others. After Woody Wilson got us all caught up in WWI, we have been inexorably pulled more and more into world affairs...I liked it better when we just intervened in this hemisphere, kept things cool on this side of the Pacific and Atlantic. But those halcyon days seem long past [ can almost here the Beatles tune Yesterday playing in the background ], nobody else has the super power ring and secret decoder set, just us. I think isolationism died with Pearl Harbor...and if not, with 9-11...

    Nostalgia is cool right up until we get attacked again.
    I'm old enough to have had anti-war protests during Vietnam; since then we've turned our backs on "the good we've done", as you say it.

    I can't think of any war/intervention since and including then - with the possible exception of Yugoslavia - where we've done anything but meddle/
    interfere with other countrys rights of self rule/determination.

    My beef with Hilary is Libya - another misadventure where we took a stable state under auspice of a 'UN No Fly zone', and turned it into a targeted assasination of Qaddafi.
    Which was regime change/assassination, and created the terrorist state Libya has become post Qaddafi. The US led NATO on this.

    Both Hillary and Susan Rice pushse the "Viagra rape" crap that Libyan forces were uising rape as a weapon of war.

    Not saying there wasn't some commanders that might have done so - but unfortunately rape is all too common in African wars.

    Human rights organisations have cast doubt on claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato's war in Libya.


    Nato leaders, opposition groups and the media have produced a stream of stories since the start of the insurrection on 15 February, claiming the Gaddafi regime has ordered mass rapes, used foreign mercenaries and employed helicopters against civilian protesters.

    An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for these human rights violations and in many cases has discredited or cast doubt on them. It also found indications that on several occasions the rebels in Benghazi appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence.

    The findings by the investigators appear to be at odds with the views of the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, who two weeks ago told a press conference that "we have information that there was a policy to rape in Libya those who were against the government. Apparently he [Colonel Gaddafi] used it to punish people."

    US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton last week said she was "deeply concerned" that Gaddafi's troops were participating in widespread rape in Libya. "Rape, physical intimidation, sexual harassment, and even so-called 'virginity tests' have taken place in countries throughout the region," she said.

    Donatella Rovera, senior crisis response adviser for Amnesty, who was in Libya for three months after the start of the uprising, says that "we have not found any evidence or a single victim of rape or a doctor who knew about somebody being raped".

    She stresses this does not prove that mass rape did not occur but there is no evidence to show that it did. Liesel Gerntholtz, head of women's rights at Human Rights Watch, which also investigated the charge of mass rape, said: "We have not been able to find evidence."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...r-2302037.html
    Hillary hyped it -also the Bengazi fiasco has to rest on her hands, I mean Obama and Company are very good at deflecting any accountability
    but someone had to know about the poor security there.
    IMHO ( and i can't prove it) Hillary knowingly left Bengazi under secure to cover up Libayn weapons smuggling to Syria.

    If you need references, i'll try to find them/ tired of continuously making this point on various messageboards, but will do so. if need be,
    Last edited by annata; 11-03-13 at 11:15 PM.
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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    oh please. "American exceptionalism" was fine when we were exceptional, now we're more "American dysfunctional" - hyperpartisanship abounds.

    Obama almost got us intot the middle of Syria, thankfully Kerry (another hawk -betraying his early days as vehemently anti-interventionist), managed to give the Russians an opening, to call off the missile strikes.

    A funny thing happened - Syria is complying with getting rid of the chem. weapons. I know, I know..it was all a brilliant gambit by Obama
    (insert sarcasm emoticon here).

    Obama has Susan Rice / Clapper/ Susan Power / and had Hillary Clinton in his appointed positions - all neo-cons; all interventionists.
    And all scumbags, too. I wouldn't trust my dogs with any of them, let alone other humans.

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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Because that's what you want to believe.

    President Obama has issued the same warnings.

    This is nothing new except for the conspiracy theorists and the Anti-Obama far right.
    Are you talking of Obama's 'line in the sand' warning?

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    Re: Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Apparently the best way to remain strong is to continue to feck with countries far away, choose their leaders for them, impose "democracy" on them, slaughter their innocents, destroy their infrastructures, exploit their national resources, send in select corporations to become local "partners", kill many of their adult males and drone the general population into submission. It's what America does to the rest of the world. Do all of this by sending the American People to do this. Do not send your own kith and ken. In Washington your job is to make everyone suffer but everyone in Washington. In Washington your job is to prosper. Walk proud, neocons, walk proud.
    It seems you and your "likers" are products of the public school system. The poison they fill young minds with today. Simply amazing.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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