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Thread: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I said a lasting just peace.
    Do you believe that the only reason to ever use violence is to, in the long run, prevent further violence?
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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    One dead, 50 new fighters born. Great job.
    You never know, it could decrease moral to kill their leader.

    They are enemies as supporters of Al-Qaueda (among other things) and as such we should be conducting such strikes and disposing of our enemies through death or being prisoners of war.
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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Yet you refer to the killing of known terrorist ring leaders as "murder".

    If you actually did have any sympathy for the victims of terrorists, you would most definitely NOT bemoan their deaths while trying to create sympathy for them by making them the victim, instead, as is patently in evidence by this twisted choice of words.
    mur·der
    /ˈmərdər/
    noun
    noun: murder; plural noun: murders1. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
    "the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
    synonyms: killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More

    1. Per both the USA's and international law, killing that is not in self defense, not on a battlefield and not after a trial is considered murder.

    2. Many of the people targetted by drones are not enemies of the USA, they are involved in Yemen and Somalia's civil wars.

    3. I don't believe that a handful of government officials acting in secret with limited information should be trusted to pick people to assassinate all over the world. I belive in due process and fair trials, formerly considered a traditional "American" value.

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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Do you believe that the only reason to ever use violence is to, in the long run, prevent further violence?
    Most of the time, yes. I think that is the only reson to get involved in wars that are not attacks on the USA-to prevent a genocidal situation. Self defense and protection of our autonomy are also valid reasons.

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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Yet you refer to the killing of known terrorist ring leaders as "murder".

    If you actually did have any sympathy for the victims of terrorists, you would most definitely NOT bemoan their deaths while trying to create sympathy for them by making them the victim, instead, as is patently in evidence by this twisted choice of words.
    For one example, I never had a problem with the killing of Bin Laden because there was solid proof of his crimes (he publicly admitted them and made more threats]. However, there was an attempt to capture him before he was killed, as there should have been. (assuming the reports are correct]

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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Most of the time, yes. I think that is the only reson to get involved in wars that are not attacks on the USA-to prevent a genocidal situation. Self defense and protection of our autonomy are also valid reasons.
    Okay, and that's fine, but some people will disagree. You have to understand where people are coming from in order to have a fruitful engagement with them. Not everyone has the same fundamental mindset towards war that you do, so you might want to have that in mind.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Most of the time, yes. I think that is the only reson to get involved in wars that are not attacks on the USA-to prevent a genocidal situation. Self defense and protection of our autonomy are also valid reasons.
    Our immediate defense is about the only just reason to engage in war. And even then, it must be declared by Congress and driven to official surrender by the enemy.
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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    As I said, WWII was a good war that was won with mass killing and acheived a lasting peace. However, since much of the killing was unnecessary it wasn't completely just.

    Fire Bombing of Dresden
    "....Critics of the bombing argue that Dresden—sometimes referred to as "Florence on the Elbe" (Elbflorenz)—was a cultural landmark of little or no military significance, and that the attacks were indiscriminate area bombing and not proportionate to the commensurate military gains.

    'It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land… The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.'........"
    Wikipedia
    What an absurd standard. The only way a moral order is justifiable is if every single action that preceded its erection was completely and uncontroversially moral? Nonsense. The premise of our tiff was that violence could in fact establish a more just order, and that it does not breed violence. As tragic as the 20th Century has often been it remains a testament to that fact. The victory of the allies in World War II inaugurated an unprecedented level of global peace and laid the foundations for the modern international order. Without going to any further examples it disproves your central point.

    Don't get me wrong. I could defend the Allied strategic bombing campaign during World War II---I just don't need to.

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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    The N. Vietnamese were communists, i think because they were tired of colonial powers (France/US) coming into SE Asia, and taking the resources.
    I'm a bit foggy on this - it was long ago.

    Either way, it was their counrty, they could run any gov't as the please - the US was in Cold War hysteria - why JFK sent advisers in the first place;
    but the escaaltion by LBJ was just pure paranoia run wild. we lost 53,000 men and women their on nothing but hysterical policy

    After the fall of Saigon ; Vietnam has nothing significant to do with the Cold War. Meaning it never did in the first place, except our insane "domino theory" constructs we invented.
    No need to get into a debate about Vietnam, Annata, but I supported the Americans against the Communists because of the tens of millions of people the communist killed and the tens of millions more whose chances in life were ruined. If you believe the Americans were the bad guys in Vietnam then we'll let it go at that.
    Last edited by Grant; 11-04-13 at 11:09 PM.

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    Re: Head of the Pakistani Taliban Killed by US Drone Strike

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    It is genocide, or close to it, when civilian areas are attacked with weapons of mass destruction such as nukes, fire bombs and deadly chemicals. One of the many problems with war is people get so angry and/or start to like killing so much that they go beyond military necessity and into mass murder, this happens to even the most "civilized" people.
    It is not genocide or close to it because that's not what genocide means. The truth shouldn't be that hard.

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