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Thread: Fed judge: Texas abortion limits unconstitutional [W:167:202:330]

  1. #471
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    Re: Fed judge: Texas abortion limits unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Here is the problem I have with Pro-lifers. The pro-lifers are saying the woman should have to carry the baby to term, while going through all the physical and mental changes to their body, while the man has no responsibility to ANYHTING LEGALLY. They say the woman should accept "personal responsibility" for having sex and getting pregnant, however, there is NO LEGAL requirement for the man to do ANYTHING during the pregnancy at all. So it's all on the woman.
    I agree the situation is unfortunate, but, the man, the legal system and pro-lifers in general did not design the human body. As far as legality is concerned, the man should be held equally responsible.

    Pro-lifers cannot pull the child support card either, becuase child support goes for either the man or woman. So where is the LEGAL responsibility of the man?
    What legal responsibility would you suggest other than child support?

    When I see pro-lifers lobying congress to hold the man legally responsible DURING the pregnancy, maybe then I will relook at my stance on being pro-choice. But with everything falling on the woman, I don't support that.
    Actually, I know of several efforts by pro-life groups to make such a thing legal. I'll have to see if I can find some link to that.
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    Re: Fed judge: Texas abortion limits unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    A human right, other than self defense, does not give one the right to kill.
    Why is self-defense ok then? Just because you said so?

    Some people dont believe in that either. Yet it's generally the law.

    Do you believe that it is wrong to terminate the fetus to save the mother's life? And that is not self-defense, because the fetus has not 'intent' to harm.

    Do you believe the mother should not be allowed to take chemo or other drugs to save her own life and risk or terminate the fetus?

    Those things ARE legal, btw, because the fetus's right to life is not equal to the woman's.
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    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Fed judge: Texas abortion limits unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Why is self-defense ok then? Just because you said so?

    Some people dont believe in that either. Yet it's generally the law.
    Self defense is "ok" because you are defending your most basic human right...the right to life.

    Do you believe that it is wrong to terminate the fetus to save the mother's life? And that is not self-defense, because the fetus has not 'intent' to harm.
    No, if the fetus puts her life in danger, then she has the right to defend herself.

    Do you believe the mother should not be allowed to take chemo or other drugs to save her own life and risk or terminate the fetus?
    She has the right to protect her own life.

    Those things ARE legal, btw, because the fetus's right to life is not equal to the woman's.
    No, that is not why it's legal. Defending one's own life, even if it risk another, is a basic human right.
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  4. #474
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    Re: Fed judge: Texas abortion limits unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Self defense is "ok" because you are defending your most basic human right...the right to life.

    No, if the fetus puts her life in danger, then she has the right to defend herself.

    She has the right to protect her own life.

    No, that is not why it's legal. Defending one's own life, even if it risk another, is a basic human right.
    A woman's live is endangered by being pregnant. And so far as I am aware, you can also defend yourself against someone who is trying to hurt you.
    A woman's health is endangered by being pregnant.

    What I'm saying here is that, even if you argue self-defense as the only reasonable arbiter of when you can kill another, I would still think that both the woman and the fetus have nearly equal claims.
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    Re: Fed judge: Texas abortion limits unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    A woman's live is endangered by being pregnant. And so far as I am aware, you can also defend yourself against someone who is trying to hurt you.
    A woman's health is endangered by being pregnant.

    What I'm saying here is that, even if you argue self-defense as the only reasonable arbiter of when you can kill another, I would still think that both the woman and the fetus have nearly equal claims.
    You are also in danger every time you get behind the wheel of a car, that doesn't mean you have the right to kill anyone that gets too close. The point is, there is a threshold that must be reached before danger becomes "worthy" of self defense.
    Last edited by mac; 11-25-13 at 08:38 PM.
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  6. #476
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Fed judge: Texas abortion limits unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    You are also in danger every time you get behind the wheel of a car, that doesn't mean you have the right to kill anyone that get's too close. The point is, there is a threshold that must be reached before danger becomes "worthy" of self defense.
    the threshold is its place of residence, inside another

    your example is very poor, if theres somebody you dont want outside your car theres little you can do, if they are inside your house it changes dramatically and the situation here is inside your body. The common sense threshold is established not to mention existing legal and human rights.

    the threshold is very clearly established.
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    there is no such thing as an abortion on a dead fetus.

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    Re: Fed judge: Texas abortion limits unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Self defense is "ok" because you are defending your most basic human right...the right to life.



    No, if the fetus puts her life in danger, then she has the right to defend herself.



    She has the right to protect her own life.



    No, that is not why it's legal. Defending one's own life, even if it risk another, is a basic human right.

    No, we cannot, in our society, just kill others to save ourselves. We can do it ONLY if we are attacked...with the "intent" to kill or do gross bodily harm. In that case, through "intent" to do harm, a *person* loses their right to life...just like when anyone in our society gives up certain rights when they commit a crime, usually they give up their right to liberty for a period of time. A fetus cannot form 'intent.'

    We cannot kill to take someone else's liver to save ourselves. A mother cannot kill her toddler to take its heart or liver for a transplant. That is a more comparable analogy.

    Not only that, our society, legally and apparently morally (even many pro-lifers agree) that we can terminate the fetus in cases of rape or incest. Can you name any laws where we allow killing a toddler that is the product of rape to protect the mother from mental anguish? (for example). Are there any circumstances where we can kill a *person* (by definition, already born) to save another person from mental anguish?

    So no, the fetus does not have an equal right to life with the woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #478
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    Re: Fed judge: Texas abortion limits unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    No, we cannot, in our society, just kill others to save ourselves. We can do it ONLY if we are attacked...with the "intent" to kill or do gross bodily harm. In that case, through "intent" to do harm, a *person* loses their right to life...just like when anyone in our society gives up certain rights when they commit a crime, usually they give up their right to liberty for a period of time. A fetus cannot form 'intent.'

    We cannot kill to take someone else's liver to save ourselves. A mother cannot kill her toddler to take its heart or liver for a transplant. That is a more comparable analogy.

    Not only that, our society, legally and apparently morally (even many pro-lifers agree) that we can terminate the fetus in cases of rape or incest. Can you name any laws where we allow killing a toddler that is the product of rape to protect the mother from mental anguish? (for example). Are there any circumstances where we can kill a *person* (by definition, already born) to save another person from mental anguish?

    So no, the fetus does not have an equal right to life with the woman.
    Wow, you're all over the place. I didn't claim you can kill someone "just to save yourself". What I said is you can kill to save yourself from someone or something that is putting your life at risk.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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