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Thread: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    You make no sense.

    My stance is that assaults on the body of an innocent human being (by his or her own parents, no less) should be illegal and should result in punishment under the rule of law.

    I do not encourage assault to progress to homicide, which warrants an more severe penalty.
    I have stated the obvious. The law tells pregnant girls and females: "If you abort you have no legal risks. if you don't you do." A person does not have to have done anything wrong at all to be arrested and put on trial, sitting in jail waiting for trial. Any woman who had a child who is birth defective in any way which MIGHT have caused it could be subject to arrest and imprisonment merely by anyone - true or false - claiming she used some illegal substance or had a glass of wine under these type laws.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    You make no sense.

    My stance is that assaults on the body of an innocent human being (by his or her own parents, no less) should be illegal and should result in punishment under the rule of law.

    I do not encourage assault to progress to homicide, which warrants an more severe penalty.
    Translation: you view the woman as a lesser vs the ZEF and also her legal and human rights are not as important to you when comparing them to the ZEF.
    An opinion that you are free to have and that many people do have but it doesnt change the fact or foundation of your stance.
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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    Again, you've afforded only two choices to a situation in which there are multiple of past and current choices that formed the situation. Removing all of the other variables is a ploy to make your point. Its akin to saying I'm drunk, and I have to get home to care for my child, so I have two choices: Drive drunk or let my child suffer.
    You example doesn't work. The woman can call a taxi. So try again.

    I understand you are making the case that forcing a woman to abort to avoid criminal prosecution is the woman's fault. No surprise. But your's is a pro-abortion position - only you then placing blame for it on the woman.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    Translation: you view the woman as a lesser vs the ZEF
    That's not a translation, it's a bastardization. Also known as a straw man argument.

    The woman's right to abuse opiates is lesser than the fetuses' right to not be permanently brain damaged.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    1.)That's not a translation, it's a bastardization. Also known as a straw man argument.

    2.)The woman's right to abuse opiates is lesser than the fetuses' right to not be permanently brain damaged.
    1.) actually its a fact proven by many of his posts and reality. If you disagree by all means PLEASE PLEASE factually prove that you can either ban abortion or make abortion unlimited with out violating the current legal and human rights of the woman or the ZEF. Id love to hear it.

    2.) thats not happening in this case so THATS the only strawman. If you would like to ask me what i think about a active junkie who is pregnant and chooses to abuse drugs anyway feel free to do so.

    Please focus on what i actually said and what im addressing instead of making up your own.

    It is factually impossible for the woman and ZEF to have equal rights and that was the point of my post and what i was addressing that he got factually wrong.
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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I'll give you my most honest answer. I do have a real problem with anyone taking actions that harm a fetus if the intention is bringing it to full term, whether the birth mother or otherwise. So I am actually unsure what I think should be "law" in such regards. That is my honest answer.

    BUT it also is "truthful" that such laws are NOT pro-life. Having a law that gives a woman the choice between having an abortion or maybe going to prison (even possibly for life) is not pro-life. It is not pro-choice. It is pro-abortion.

    Despite how these debates are framed as 2 diametric sides of absolute positions, personally I don't think it is, just like little in life is not a question of endless absolute yes-no decisions. Most of life and issues are about shades of gray.
    See, here's where we both agree and disagree...

    I agree with you about "shadoes gray". That's why I don't buy your argument that it's "pro-abortoin".

    I don't see a law like this necessarily being "pro-life" or "pro-choice"...those two terms are directly tied to abortion. This, to me, doesn't tie to abortion, though it is within the same general area. While I think more "pro-life" types are going to support something like this than "pro-choice" people. However, think that your people who align with either of those two sides...but who don't let it DEFINE them in some monumental way...could absolutely support something like this in theory. I think where the tie to "pro-life" and "pro-choice" come into play is the fact that laws rarely stand on their own, and part of the rationale for how this law likely came to pass can also then be piggy backed upon to make the "pro-life" argument.

    Maybe laws should encourage women who are substance addicts in ways that harm to the fetus - both due to potential severe birth defects and the inability of the mother to care for it either way. If I have made ANYTHING clear on these topics is my opposition to ANY bio-parent being legally able to just dump children on "the system" and "we the people."
    The problem is HOW should the laws encourage women in those situations? that's the hard question.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) actually its a fact proven by many of his posts and reality. If you disagree by all means PLEASE PLEASE factually prove that you can either ban abortion or make abortion unlimited with out violating the current legal and human rights of the woman or the ZEF. Id love to hear it.
    Rights are being suspended, not violated. Rights are suspended when people try to use them to abuse others. I'm not talking about banning abortion.

    2.) thats not happening in this case
    Yes it most certainly is. Scoring opiates on the street and using them while pregnant is abuse (of the substance and the fetus).

    It is factually impossible for the woman and ZEF to have equal rights and that was the point of my post and what i was addressing that he got factually wrong.
    I'm not arguing for equal rights. I'm arguing for the right of the fetus to not be brain damaged by substances to supersede the right of pregnant women to abuse substances.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    1.)Rights are being suspended, not violated. Rights are suspended when people try to use them to abuse others.
    2.)I'm not talking about banning abortion.
    3.)Yes it most certainly is. Scoring opiates on the street and using them while pregnant is abuse (of the substance and the fetus).



    I'm not arguing for equal rights. I'm arguing for the right of the fetus to not be brain damaged by substances to supersede the right of pregnant women to abuse substances.
    1.) per what im actually discussing they are being factually violated
    2.) i was hence your mistake
    3.) nope didnt happen in this case, there were no drugs in her system
    4.) again hence your mistake since i wasnt talking about that
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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Yes, I understand you want people to have an attorney and trial AFTER than have been sentenced and served their time.
    Do'h! Is right to what you said.
    That was not the time for such an action.


    Secondly, the law isn't about woman in general.
    This is specifically about those pregnant woman who habitually lack self-control in the use of alcohol beverages, controlled substances or controlled substance analogs, exhibited to a severe degree.


    How it is being applied is what is wrong.
    The law is a good one. Sorry you don't like it.
    Last edited by Excon; 10-25-13 at 06:47 PM.
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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    And how stupid does a person have to be to not be able to understand that what I was talking about was being proactive and socially responsible before the fact? Nothing of which was understood by you as evidenced by your insults toward me which were completely off the topic I addressed.

    It's evidence that the average libertarian is not interested in the least with the maintaining or furthering of people's rights, only that they have signed on lock, stock, and barrel to the teabagger ideology of obscuring the real issue.
    Obscuritiy is when posts like the above are allowed to place all ove a board. How about something besides talking points and finger pointing? Liberals love killing babies, always have, always will.

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