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Thread: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    The ethical dilemma is yours. The woman's right to abuse drugs should not supersede a dependent's right not to be given static encephalopathy by the abusive addict. We're talking about the lesser infringement here. In this case, infringing on an addict's drug consumption liberty is less infringing than permanent brain damage on the part of the fetus.

    Advocating absolute liberty for the woman and absolute zero legal protection for the fetus is the rabid extremist position, in this case.
    And how stupid does a person have to be to not be able to understand that what I was talking about was being proactive and socially responsible before the fact? Nothing of which was understood by you as evidenced by your insults toward me which were completely off the topic I addressed.

    It's evidence that the average libertarian is not interested in the least with the maintaining or furthering of people's rights, only that they have signed on lock, stock, and barrel to the teabagger ideology of obscuring the real issue.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    Both Zyphellin and joko's problem is that neither of them have the slightest idea of what being proactive and socially responsible means. Rather, they like typical americans will clutter up the conversation that could yield an understanding of what's facing people in their irrational and dysfunctional society.

    Punishing the woman and throwing her in jail is the norm. Being proactive and addressing the problem before the problem becomes impossible to deal with would never enter either of their minds.

    You are wrong about both of us. The topic of avoiding unwanted pregnancies and substance abuse are not the topic of this thread. You can start threads on those topics if you wish. NEITHER Zyphellin nor I favor unwanted pregnancies or are indifferent to them. It is possible he and I would mostly agreed on ways to avoid unwanted pregnancies and - possibly - how to address substance abuse issues.

    But that is not the topic here. This topic concerns hard issues after a girl/woman is pregnant.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law - U.S. News

    This is the logical conclusion of the misguided belief that fetuses have rights. It is impossible to give rights to a being growing inside a person's body without violating that person's rights.
    Yep many people like to ignore this fact but its a fact none the less. It can even be honestly argued against with any type of logic.

    If the details of the story are accurate and true thats absolutely insane.
    Last edited by AGENT J; 10-25-13 at 04:01 PM.
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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    You are wrong about both of us. The topic of avoiding unwanted pregnancies and substance abuse are not the topic of this thread. You can start threads on those topics if you wish. NEITHER Zyphellin nor I favor unwanted pregnancies or are indifferent to them. It is possible he and I would mostly agreed on ways to avoid unwanted pregnancies and - possibly - how to address substance abuse issues.

    But that is not the topic here. This topic concerns hard issues after a girl/woman is pregnant.
    Yet neither of you are addressing the real issue. And you even go so far as to say it's not the issue. I think the proof is in the pudding judging solely from your track record. It's certainly the problem with your government and your country! Your prison incarceration echoes your priorities loud and clear as you try to backtrack and find excuses for your behaviour.

    And then all Zyphellin has done is give expert lessons on how to insult others and stay within the bounds of the rules. Yes, that does show a proactive approach to the problems facing women in your hateful society!

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Wow, I think you definitely figured it out. This is both an obscene horrible catastrophic stereotypical bigoted pro-lifer law AND one that is clealry aimed at forcing women to have abortions.....because pro-lifers are like, totaly....for....abo-....


    Sigh. Just, REALLY?
    I hope you are not posting extreme flaming and then claiming those were my words. If you can link to any message where I called you "bigoted" then do so.

    I read your message as urgently wanting to close down the topic as I present my side of it and shift it to male pro-life raging at women for getting pregnant in the first place in pro-lifers now wishing to derail the thread to fury against women who become pregnant, al of which has exactly nothing to do with this topic.

    Under most such laws in most states, even if the woman stops using any substances upon learning she is pregnant, she is still liable to criminal prosecution akin to murder or manslaughter if it determined substance abuse even may have caused a birth defect. Maybe all threads on the abortion board topic titles should just be changed to debating "How evil are women who have sex?" That is how virtually every thread devolves quickly, other than also how abortion is murder.
    Last edited by joko104; 10-25-13 at 04:14 PM.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I hope your posting extreme flaming yourself is not then followed up with you then claiming those were my words.

    I read your message as urgently wanting to close down the topic and shift it to male pro-life raging at women for getting pregnant in the first place in pro-lifers now wishing to derail the thread to fury against women who become pregnant, al of which has exactly nothing to do with this topic.

    Under most such laws in most states, even if the woman stops using any substances upon learning she is pregnant, she is still liable to criminal prosecution akin to murder or manslaughter if it determined substance abuse even may have caused a birth defect. Maybe all threads on the abortion board should just be changed to debating "How evil are women who have sex?" That is how virtually every thread devolves.
    You may have hit on something there. Women who have sex are evil and the term 'teabagger' has sexual connotations to Zyphellin. That's not something he would prefer people not to know.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    And how stupid does a person have to be to not be able to understand that what I was talking about was being proactive and socially responsible before the fact? Nothing of which was understood by you as evidenced by your insults toward me which were completely off the topic I addressed.
    I sent no insult your way and my comments are directly related to this topic.

    It's evidence that the average libertarian is not interested in the least with the maintaining or furthering of people's rights, only that they have signed on lock, stock, and barrel to the teabagger ideology of obscuring the real issue.
    And now you're taking it in a partisan direction. Libertarians value balancing the rights of one against the rights of others. The goal is to maximize liberty without allowing some to be directly harmed by the actions of others. That's what this is about. A woman's liberty to abuse opiates is less important than a fetus (that will be carried to term) to not be permanently brain damaged.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    There are lots of incidences of people being imprisoned and sentenced before a trial. America made itself infamous for doing just that. The slippery slope of disregard for international norms in law is coming home to roost.
    The system of bail has evolved to prison prior to being found guilty as a method of extreme pressure to plea out since you'll get out jail faster pleading guilty than waiting for trial in jail and found not guilty. Even if a person can make the bail bond 10% fee (plus putting up car and house as collateral), that fee is a fine the person never recovers even if found not guilty. People are jailed before trial, pay a "bond fine" for pleading not guilty, and most jailed longer as punishment for pleading not guilty - whether or not ultimately found not guilty.

    For all but the most serious offenses, a person will serve more time in jail and spend more money if the outcome is the person is found not guilty, than pleading guilty.

    There are also some BAD Supreme Court rulings in such regards. For example, imprisoning a person for only 364 is considered so minor as to not warrant many rights including no jury. In fact, being put in jail for 364 days would destroy most people's lives.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    In this, your stance is that pregnant women should either be put on trial and possibly sent to prison OR pursue the safe legal route of aborting. Blackmailing women to force them to abort means your focus isn't about "aggressive homicide" against "human offspring." It is about controlling the behavior of women.
    You make no sense.

    My stance is that assaults on the body of an innocent human being (by his or her own parents, no less) should be illegal and should result in punishment under the rule of law.

    I do not encourage assault to progress to homicide, which warrants an more severe penalty.

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    re: Shackled and pregnant: Wis. case challenges 'fetal protection' law [W:93]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    That has exactly nothing to do with the issue. They are plenty of other threads were you can moralize down at women.

    This topic, like all abortion topics, will degrade almost immediately to the typical might-as-well-cut-and-paste two absolute opposite sides and all their slogans. Since the girl/woman is already pregnant and the question "now what?", your message is just derailment.
    Again, you've afforded only two choices to a situation in which there are multiple of past and current choices that formed the situation. Removing all of the other variables is a ploy to make your point. Its akin to saying I'm drunk, and I have to get home to care for my child, so I have two choices: Drive drunk or let my child suffer.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104
    But the obvious reality is such laws give women who do engage in substance abuse a very clear choice 1.) have an abortion or 2.) go to prison.

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