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'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

j-mac said:
What you are saying here to Bman is correct, however, maybe you can address something for me....In the roll out this past month, as well as the numbers we see coming out on enrollment, there is a real purposely misleading component to what is being put out here....

1. the administration is saying that they have over 700k "applications" over and over, and we know that you must fill out an application to have even have the ability to compare policies, and even when they knew that little trick wasn't going to work, and put in a button to see the policies they are still not even close to what a final cost may be for shoppers.

2. the next mis truth they are telling, or to be fair not explaining, is that of those that they are touting as 'signed up' especially in states like KY where the democrat governor went along with the plan and started their own exchange, is that roughly 85% or better of those signed up are on Medicaid, not purchasing anything...That is misleading at best.

If Obama, and demo's want to get this to work, they are going to have to be a lot more honest than that...I don't know if they can be.
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You're absolutely right. What they are saying is, at best, misleading because, as you said, you have to register to even browse plans or find out if you qualify for subsidies. As far as those signing up in other states and those signing up belonging to Medicaid, I'd say two things. 1) The Medicaid expansion is part of Obamacare. 2) if people are receiving coverage who previously did not, this should be celebrated, regardless of your political affiliation.

I agree with you, what's coming out regarding the "successes" is/can be misleading. But it's just part of the game being played by both sides right now. Republicans are using obscure examples of some random person who claims to have been negatively affected and from this are claiming Obamacare is a failure. Democrats are taking those who registered an account and pointing to the high numbers and are claiming success. At the end of the day, both sides are playing the political game because NEITHER party is making a claim which challenges the truth. And the truth is that it doesn't matter how many have signed up or not signed up, everyone WILL have to have coverage or pay the fine/tax.

That's just the simple fact. You'll either have coverage or you'll pay the fine/tax. Both parties spinning their made up successes and failures are largely irrelevant and is little more than political posturing.
 
Conservative said:
Do you haven any idea what affects life expectancy? Figure it out and get back to me. The best medical system in the world doesn't expand life expectancy if you destroy it by personal habits. The choices in this country are the costs of freedom. People choose to do drugs, people choose to buy from fast food restaurants, people choose to drink too much, people choose not to exercise, and it goes on. Do you expect the govt. to regulate those activities as well?

You tell me that the Canadian system is working but you have no proof.

Your disdain for the Tea Party is built on ignorance, yours
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Of course the HC system is working in Canada and it dozens of other nations too. Believe it or not it is possible to cover everyone at half what we pay and have better outcomes. Just because you are healthy and think you have good insurance is not an excuse for you to want this failed system to continue forever. We need to change and somebody needs to stick their neck out and get it done.
 
iguanaman said:
Of course the HC system is working in Canada and it dozens of other nations too. Believe it or not it is possible to cover everyone at half what we pay and have better outcomes. Just because you are healthy and think you have good insurance is not an excuse for you to want this failed system to continue forever. We need to change and somebody needs to stick their neck out and get it done.
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If our country would spend half the amount of time tweaking the problems which exist and will continue to show themselves in Obamacare as we do arguing the political extremes of it, it would be of great benefit to everyone.

It amazes me how otherwise rational people can act so stupidly when it goes against their party politics. There is absolutely no question our health insurance system is broken. People like me, who pay health insurance, have been subsidizing those without it who make the emergency room visits for decades now. My cousin is an ER doctor and he once said roughly 50% of emergency room visits go unpaid. The question I always have is do citizens really think the hospital just simply chooses to eat those losses? Of course not, they pass on the costs, where they eventually trickle back down to me and my insurance plan (or otherwise my thousand dollar jello dessert).

We need a change in the way our healthcare/insurance system was working. I have no doubt there will be problems, both foreseen and unforeseen. Instead of bitching in politically partisan tones (which is only done because it raises bribes/campaign donations), it'd be nice if people were to sit down and actually figure out where the problems are and work to fix them. But that's not nearly as profitable, so we have what we have.
 
iguanaman said:
Of course the HC system is working in Canada and it dozens of other nations too. Believe it or not it is possible to cover everyone at half what we pay and have better outcomes. Just because you are healthy and think you have good insurance is not an excuse for you to want this failed system to continue forever. We need to change and somebody needs to stick their neck out and get it done.
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That is your opinion, want to pay Canadian taxes or European taxes for it? Do you understand personal responsibility at all. If it is possible to cover everyone at half the cost then why isn't medicare more effective and that is total govt. control. Why is it that doctors are dropping Medicare? Why is it you cannot see waste, fraud, and abuse as a problem and understand that Obama has no interest in really correcting the problem?

You buy what you are told but have nothing to base your opinion on other than the opinion of others. Obama is sticking the neck out of the taxpayers and taking us beyond the point of no return. What happens if you and he are wrong?
 
Slyfox696 said:
If our country would spend half the amount of time tweaking the problems which exist and will continue to show themselves in Obamacare as we do arguing the political extremes of it, it would be of great benefit to everyone.

It amazes me how otherwise rational people can act so stupidly when it goes against their party politics. There is absolutely no question our health insurance system is broken. People like me, who pay health insurance, have been subsidizing those without it who make the emergency room visits for decades now. My cousin is an ER doctor and he once said roughly 50% of emergency room visits go unpaid. The question I always have is do citizens really think the hospital just simply chooses to eat those losses? Of course not, they pass on the costs, where they eventually trickle back down to me and my insurance plan (or otherwise my thousand dollar jello dessert).

We need a change in the way our healthcare/insurance system was working. I have no doubt there will be problems, both foreseen and unforeseen. Instead of bitching in politically partisan tones (which is only done because it raises bribes/campaign donations), it'd be nice if people were to sit down and actually figure out where the problems are and work to fix them. But that's not nearly as profitable, so we have what we have.
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How do you sit down with a Community agitator and Harry Reid who refuse to negotiate? What healthcare idea was taken from the Republicans? Here is a proposal that you haven't seen. Analyze it and tell me that there aren't good ideas in there.

The American Health Care Reform Act | Republican Study Committee (RSC)
 
Conservative said:
How do you sit down with a Community agitator and Harry Reid who refuse to negotiate?
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Obama refused to negotiate on the part of Congress doing their job. They also refused to accept a budget in which the minority would govern over the majority. They said many times they would be willing to sit down and listen to the improvements (not repeal, but improvements) Republicans would suggest, but only after Congress did its job for paying for what it's already spent.

Now, tell me...aside from getting rid of Obamacare, exactly what improvements have Republicans formally proposed? The medical device tax? Okay, it's something which seems to have support on both sides of the aisle. It will likely be amended. What else have Republicans proposed?

What healthcare idea was taken from the Republicans?
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As already mentioned, Obama (and Democrats) wanted the single-payer system. What they did instead was take something very similar to what the Republican based Heritage Foundation proposed and was implemented by Republican Mitt Romney. Our current system was proposed as a compromise.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Nonsense. If people are being dropped because they had insurance which exceeded the minimum required by Obamacare, that is not the fault of Obamacare. That was the point. Only the people who had insurance which did not meet the minimum standards under Obamacare would be effected, and that will usually apply to those who had what's commonly known as catastrophic insurance.

Leave it to you to try and claim I said something wrong which was not wrong. Oh, and I didn't post that in response to you, I posted it in response to the user Grant.

So not only did you claim I said something wrong which wasn't, you also couldn't provide a single example of where I posted something to you which was untrue. At this point, my point is proven.

I suspect you don't even understand what a fallacy is.
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See what you did here?? You made a self- refuting statement and use that as though they were both true to make your point and both false to disprove your opposition, simultaneously, and seem to be doing so with a straight face.

Then you claim I must not know a fallacy... This is such a joke of a fallacy that you must think you can perform the Jedi mind-trick...
 
BmanMcfly said:
See what you did here?? You made a self- refuting statement
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No, I did not. I'm beginning to think you're not actually reading what I'm typing, but rather what you want to believe I'm typing.

So, once more...do you have a single example of me saying something to you which is not true?

Then you claim I must not know a fallacy
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And you've said nothing since which makes me think otherwise.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Obama refused to negotiate on the part of Congress doing their job. They also refused to accept a budget in which the minority would govern over the majority. They said many times they would be willing to sit down and listen to the improvements (not repeal, but improvements) Republicans would suggest, but only after Congress did its job for paying for what it's already spent.

Now, tell me...aside from getting rid of Obamacare, exactly what improvements have Republicans formally proposed? The medical device tax? Okay, it's something which seems to have support on both sides of the aisle. It will likely be amended. What else have Republicans proposed?

As already mentioned, Obama (and Democrats) wanted the single-payer system. What they did instead was take something very similar to what the Republican based Heritage Foundation proposed and was implemented by Republican Mitt Romney. Our current system was proposed as a compromise.
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Leadership is all about negotiation, something neither your or Obama understand. Congress did its job, started with defunding and then delay but Obama and Reid prefer to be dictators. Funny how a minority in the "Peoples' House" doesn't mean anything to some people

I have posted the Republican ideas, you ignored them.

Keep spouting the debunked lie about the Heritage Foundation which continues to erode what little credibility you have
 
Conservative said:
Leadership is all about negotiation, something neither your or Obama understand. Congress did its job, started with defunding and then delay but Obama and Reid prefer to be dictators.
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I'm sorry, but I could have swore you just insinuated "Congress" is only the House of Representatives. I'm quite certain the Senate is part of Congress as well, and the Senate agreed to essentially everything presented by the House, minus the Obamacare repeal/delay.

I have posted the Republican ideas, you ignored them.
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I asked you what Republicans proposed to amend Obamacare. You provided what I assume to be something not related to Obamacare.

Was the link you posted directly related to Obamacare? If so, I'll look at it again. If not, my question remains.

Keep spouting the debunked lie about the Heritage Foundation which continues to erode what little credibility you have
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I'm very curious as to how the truth can be debunked. Is Obamacare word for word what was proposed by the Heritage Foundation? No, I'm not saying it is. But much of it is inspired from it, including the individual mandate.

Like I said, Obamacare was the compromise between what Republicans have championed and what Democrats have championed.
 
Slyfox696;1062477821]I'm sorry, but I could have swore you just insinuated "Congress" is only the House of Representatives. I'm quite certain the Senate is part of Congress as well, and the Senate agreed to essentially everything presented by the House, minus the Obamacare repeal/delay.
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No such insinuation but you wouldn't know it from the media or people like you. The Founders knew what they were doing, putting power of the purse closest to the people which is the House

I asked you what Republicans proposed to amend Obamacare. You provided what I assume to be something not related to Obamacare.
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This is at least the fourth time today I have posted this. Seems you have selective reading capabilities.

The American Health Care Reform Act | Republican Study Committee (RSC)


I'm very curious as to how the truth can be debunked. Is Obamacare word for word what was proposed by the Heritage Foundation? No, I'm not saying it is. But much of it is inspired from it, including the individual mandate.

Like I said, Obamacare was the compromise between what Republicans have championed and what Democrats have championed.
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Another link that you ignored, J-mac posted it and the exact quote in it, you need to do a better job reading the posts here. There was no compromise or did you miss the closed door negotiations of the Democrat caucus? Did you miss the hearings that Obama had with Republicans where he told McCain that elections have consequences and that he had won and McCain has lost. Maybe you were too young to pay any attention but the question is why aren't you doing better research?
 
Slyfox696 said:
I'm sorry, but I could have swore you just insinuated "Congress" is only the House of Representatives. I'm quite certain the Senate is part of Congress as well, and the Senate agreed to essentially everything presented by the House, minus the Obamacare repeal/delay.

I asked you what Republicans proposed to amend Obamacare. You provided what I assume to be something not related to Obamacare.

Was the link you posted directly related to Obamacare? If so, I'll look at it again. If not, my question remains.

I'm very curious as to how the truth can be debunked. Is Obamacare word for word what was proposed by the Heritage Foundation? No, I'm not saying it is. But much of it is inspired from it, including the individual mandate.

Like I said, Obamacare was the compromise between what Republicans have championed and what Democrats have championed.
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Post 277 will answer your question and debunk your claim
 
Conservative said:
No such insinuation
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My mistake. So when you said "Congress did its job", you must have meant Congress did its job and passed Obamacare and then did its job to find a deal which re-opened the government (after it didn't do its job and government shut down). Correct?

This is at least the fourth time today I have posted this. Seems you have selective reading capabilities.

The American Health Care Reform Act | Republican Study Committee (RSC)
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No, I saw your link before. Now answer MY question.

"Was the link you posted directly related to Obamacare? If so, I'll look at it again. If not, my question remains."

Answer my question. Is the link you posted, which I already acknowledged, related to Obamacare? If so, I'll look over it again. If not, then I come back to my original question, which is what have Republicans proposed to tweak Obamacare, aside from the things I've already mentioned.

Another link that you ignored, J-mac posted it and the exact quote in it, you need to do a better job reading the posts here.
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No, I read his post too, regarding the Heritage Foundation and the individual mandate. Now respond to MY post, which in no way contradicts his post.

There was no compromise
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Obamacare was presented as a compromise between the single payer system Democrats wanted to something more akin to something Republicans have promoted.
 
Slyfox696 said:
My mistake. So when you said "Congress did its job", you must have meant Congress did its job and passed Obamacare and then did its job to find a deal which re-opened the government (after it didn't do its job and government shut down). Correct?

No, I saw your link before. Now answer MY question.

"Was the link you posted directly related to Obamacare? If so, I'll look at it again. If not, my question remains."

Answer my question. Is the link you posted, which I already acknowledged, related to Obamacare? If so, I'll look over it again. If not, then I come back to my original question, which is what have Republicans proposed to tweak Obamacare, aside from the things I've already mentioned.

No, I read his post too, regarding the Heritage Foundation and the individual mandate. Now respond to MY post, which in no way contradicts his post.

Obamacare was presented as a compromise between the single payer system Democrats wanted to something more akin to something Republicans have promoted.
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The claim was that the GOP proposed nothing regarding Healthcare Reform but that proves the claims wrong. The link is directly related to healthcare reform and something the Democrats wouldn't negotiate and more than 50% do not want

If you read the report then you missed this

Heritage policy experts never supported an unqualified mandate like that in the PPACA [ObamaCare]. Their prior support for a qualified mandate was limited to catastrophic coverage (true insurance that is precisely what the PPACA forbids)
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iguanaman said:
Republicans made 161 amendments to the AHC act. Denial won't help make this work. That is all Republicans should be doing now that it is law.
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How many Republican votes did the final bill get? what is the popularity of that bill today? Support of a bill that less than 45% of the people want isn't a prescription for success.
 
Conservative said:
How many Republican votes did the final bill get? what is the popularity of that bill today? Support of a bill that less than 45% of the people want isn't a prescription for success.
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Hmm so that's how we work now. How many supported the Iraq war and its 5000 American deaths? I believe VP Cheney said "he didn't care about polls" when asked about it.
 
iguanaman said:
Hmm so that's how we work now. How many supported the Iraq war and its 5000 American deaths? I believe VP Cheney said "he didn't care about polls" when asked about it.
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76 Senators in a Democrat controlled Senate voted to authorize the Iraq War but what does that have to do with Obamacare? How long are you going to hold on to that tired argument and support the incompetence we have in the WH RIGHT NOW
 
Slyfox696 said:
What part of this is difficult for you to understand?
Absolutely nothing.

The $640 million was originally reported as the price for one contractor, which I disproved. I used that source to show the $640 million (which is actually $634 million, but whatever) was the TOTAL contract for all services provided and to be provided.
LOL. Here's what you typed out: "I'll even post information from a source which has absolutely no reason to try and lower the number:CGI Federal announced in 2011 that it had been awarded a $93.7 million contract with the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services" From "a source" not all the sources and "a source" does not mean total cost. But you also even put this in: " a source which has absolutely no reason to try and lower the number". The number being of course $640 million nowhere did CGI say that were the only ones with a contract for this project. Then you even posted an article from the Blaze that said the government did not give them a total cost.

Why are you struggling so mightily with simple facts? There is no spin, it's a simple fact.
I'm not. But you keep spinning, twisting, wiggling, squirming.......

I did not misrepresent or spin anything, as I've now proven multiple times. Either you're incapable of understanding the basic English langauge or you're getting your jollies from accusing me of spin. Either way, it reflects poorly on you.
Given the difficulty you seem to be having with simple numbers and simple facts, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you seem to have confused the difference between healthcare and insurance. Oh, and as I said, nobody is forcing you to have insurance. You are welcome to simply pay the tax.
The fact you think his misrepresentation of my position is representative of me lying is incredibly amusing.

I'm still waiting for you to provide one example of something I've said to you which is untrue. Your inability to provide even one example is quite telling.
You're not waiting on anything from me nor have you proven anything except your lack of integrity.
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Your inability to post something accurate is "quite telling", about you.
 
Slyfox696 said:
You're absolutely right. What they are saying is, at best, misleading because, as you said, you have to register to even browse plans or find out if you qualify for subsidies. As far as those signing up in other states and those signing up belonging to Medicaid, I'd say two things. 1) The Medicaid expansion is part of Obamacare. 2) if people are receiving coverage who previously did not, this should be celebrated, regardless of your political affiliation.

I agree with you, what's coming out regarding the "successes" is/can be misleading. But it's just part of the game being played by both sides right now. Republicans are using obscure examples of some random person who claims to have been negatively affected and from this are claiming Obamacare is a failure. Democrats are taking those who registered an account and pointing to the high numbers and are claiming success. At the end of the day, both sides are playing the political game because NEITHER party is making a claim which challenges the truth. And the truth is that it doesn't matter how many have signed up or not signed up, everyone WILL have to have coverage or pay the fine/tax.

That's just the simple fact. You'll either have coverage or you'll pay the fine/tax. Both parties spinning their made up successes and failures are largely irrelevant and is little more than political posturing.
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Good post man...I find nothing in what you wrote that I would change, only slight differences of opinion that for the most part are just talk at the end of the day...
 
j-mac said:
Good post man...I find nothing in what you wrote that I would change, only slight differences of opinion that for the most part are just talk at the end of the day...
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It's too bad so many are so naive to think that this will even BE healthcare... It literally is a nation wide Nigerian email scam. You pay now for the promise of future rewards, those rewards are never going to come... The more invested however, the more the victims of the scam will fight to protect the scammer.
 
Conservative said:
The claim was that the GOP proposed nothing regarding Healthcare Reform
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No, it wasn't. In typical "Conservative" fashion (I'm referring to you, not an entire group of people) you have twisted my words into something they were not.

Go back and read it again and get back to me. On second thought, don't worry about it, I'll post it for you again. It'll be interesting to watch you dance around the question once more.

Slyfox696 said:
Now, tell me...aside from getting rid of Obamacare, exactly what improvements have Republicans formally proposed? The medical device tax? Okay, it's something which seems to have support on both sides of the aisle. It will likely be amended. What else have Republicans proposed?
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The link is directly related to healthcare reform
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I did not ask about healthcare reform, I asked about Obamacare. Is it related to Obamacare? Why are you continuing to duck my question?
ItAin'tFree said:
Your inability to post something accurate is "quite telling", about you.
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Everything I've posted has been accurate and sourced. It's not my fault you seem to have difficulty understanding the simple facts I provide.
 
BmanMcfly said:
It's too bad so many are so naive to think that this will even BE healthcare... It literally is a nation wide Nigerian email scam. You pay now for the promise of future rewards, those rewards are never going to come... The more invested however, the more the victims of the scam will fight to protect the scammer.
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Personally, I think you know that I couldn't disagree more with Obama, or his law controlling 1/6th of the nations economy from a centrally planned perch on high. But a couple of things are clear to me today...1. Obamacare will continue to horrify people as more and more realities of the law are unmasked, and strident supporters will have no choice but to defend the law, putting them in a most defensive position. 2. Republicans in the current make up with control of the house, and establishment repubs in positions of leadership within, willing to roll the members willing to fight, under the bus publicly, we have little chance of changing much until we win more seats. And 3. Most importantly, we know that republicans have put forth several different ways to help fix health insurance, and put the emphasis more on the delivery system, and cost, putting patients and doc's in the center, that demo's won't even let be read aloud. We are going to have to do a better job getting our own plans out there and accepted by the public...

If there is one thing that Obama, and progressive demo's have done by attempting to take over the Health insurance industry, it is that the progressives have really ripped the top off of the problems that existed, and exposed just how little we were doing about it before this. So, we are going to have to get a whole lot better at message, and talking with the people about what they want, not at the people about what we want to do. If we don't do that, then progressives will continue to beat us like a drum with the constant message of 'vote for us, vote for stuff.'...
 
Slyfox696 said:
No, it wasn't. In typical "Conservative" fashion (I'm referring to you, not an entire group of people) you have twisted my words into something they were not.

Go back and read it again and get back to me. On second thought, don't worry about it, I'll post it for you again. It'll be interesting to watch you dance around the question once more.




I did not ask about healthcare reform, I asked about Obamacare. Is it related to Obamacare? Why are you continuing to duck my question?
Everything I've posted has been accurate and sourced. It's not my fault you seem to have difficulty understanding the simple facts I provide.
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Wow, are you this reading challenged, if Obamacare cannot be repealed then there are ideas in that link that I gave you to improve it. The question is why do you support another Federally controlled entitlement program when all the others are bankrupt or should I say unfunded mandates? Like all social programs they sound great, problem is they never cost what they are supposed to cost and never solve a problem. We have a 17 trillion dollar debt so how does this lower it?
 
Conservative said:
Wow, are you this reading challenged
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No, my reading is just fine. Why can you not answer a simple question?

What has the Republicans officially proposed to improve Obamacare? You can continue to twist words all you want, I just want a simple answer to the question. I'm still waiting. The fact you're still twisting words and won't answer a simple question says a lot.
 
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