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Thread: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Then your answer should have been Yes.
    No, my answer(s) should have been exactly what I said they were.

    Reform, yes. Obamacare, No.
    That's certainly your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it. There are many people who agree. There are also people who think we should have gone all the way with a single payer system.

    Personally, I think once all the political rhetoric falls to the wayside, people will realize, much like any legislation, there are good parts of Obamacare and bad parts. Somewhere down the line, "reform" will be proposed and maybe passed, but a reform which keeps many elements of Obamacare.
    It has not proven to be a success so far.
    It hasn't even gone into effect. The enrollment only just started (with terrible implementation, but that's besides the point right now), the corporate piece was delayed...how exactly can legislation be a success before it's even fully implemented?

    If, after three years and almost a billion dollars, they cant even set up a web site, how do you think the rest of it will go?
    A) The quality of the website has nothing to do with the quality of the legislation. B) There are many factors which have gone into why the website rollout has gone badly. You'll notice those states who set up their own exchanges have had a relatively smooth time of it. If you remember, the law was developed with the idea all states would set up their own online exchanges with the federal website simply being a portal to those state exchanges. The deadline for states to declare if they were creating their own exchange was (I believe) in February of this year, leaving very little time to adjust and change direction. With roughly half the states opting not to build their own exchange website (usually for political reasons), this dramatically altered the direction the federal website was forced to take.

    The website is obviously a wreck. It's unacceptable a major rollout of a major piece of major legislation should go this badly. But it's also understandable for why it has gone the way it has.

    Only one side voted for it, and against public concerns. That would be the Democrats.
    You're changing what we were talking about. I said both sides have spread mistruths about this legislation, and pointed out where Republicans have done so.

    Your comment here really has no relevance to the topic of this particular tract of our discussion.

    He did call for bipartisan support but it was never there. And there is a difference between what can be done and what should be done. The American people should always come first.
    And the American people know what we had before was terrible.

    It certainly has become nonsense but that was seldom the case in previous administrations. Other presidents have learned how to work within the provisions laid down according to the Constitution. This President has been an obvious failure in that area.
    ....are you saying it is the President's fault the Republicans have made the political choice to oppose everything he wants to do?

    Ignoring for a moment the broken politics we've had with previous Presidents, I simply do not see how you can put the responsibility of the Republican Party's actions on anyone but the Republican Party.

    They wanted free stuff, like their Obamaphones and food stamps.
    Both of which were created before Obama and expanded under Republican presidents. If they wanted those things, they should have voted for a Republican. After all, it was Reagan who provided the free phones and Bush who provided the free cell phones.

    Those Democrats who voted for Obamacare had no idea what was in it
    That's just false. They may not have read the entire thing and they may not understood all the minute details, but to say they had no idea what was in it is simply false. Everyone knew the major parts of what was in it.

    Does it need to be pointed out that, so far, t has been a divisive and expensive boondoggle?
    Does it need to be pointed out the quality of implementation has nothing to do with the quality of the regulations?

    Now I could also get into the more partisan points of how Republicans have done everything they could to ensure it has been divisive and expensive, but it's not really relevant to the more important point of the difference between rollout and effectiveness.

    And you feel that Obamacare will turn that around?
    I feel we had an absolutely wretched system and Obamacare will improve on many aspects of what made it so terrible.

    The fact remains that wealthy Canadians, Europeans, etc, went to the US for their health care problems
    Yes, the WEALTHY. I do not dispute in the least the US health care system was great for the WEALTHY.

    and the poor were always looked after.
    No they weren't. That's utterly false and I could direct you to many people with real life stories to prove it.

    You're probably not all that familiar with other health care systems
    I'm quite familiar that many of the effective ones resemble Obamacare far more than what we previously had.

    More free enterprise in the health care system and tort reform would have helped the previous system
    Because it's helped so much in the telecommunications industry, where each year AT&T and Verizon find new ways to screw over existing users by finding new ways to limit their usage while charging them more and higher fees?

    Could there have been reforms in the previous system which could have helped? I have no doubt. But we needed something which provided everyone with the opportunity to receive quality healthcare, not simply the ones wealthy enough to afford it.

    That's certainly true about the President.
    It's true of far too many of them.

    Washington's open secret: Profitable PACs - 60 Minutes - CBS News

    That's just an example.

    Yes, we'll see. But I'd say its off to a very rocky and expensive start, few know where the truth lies and few know what the consequences might be.
    It most certainly is off to a very rocky start. But while a more smooth rollout would have been great, it's not surprising to see a reform of this magnitude to encounter major bumps.

    It truly is a leap of faith, which doesn't seem a very responsible thing to me.
    It's not a leap of faith. A leap of faith is blindly throwing things out and simply hoping for the best. The concepts behind Obamacare are quite solid. It will just remain to be seen if it works the way it's expected to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Grow up, kid, one of these days it is going to happen. You don't understand freedom at all. How can a group of people support a woman's right to choose, a person's right to marry whoever they want, and not support a person's right not to have health insurance?
    I'm quite grown, as evidenced by the fact I have no problem addressing what you say. You, however, have decided to once more avoid what I said and instead resort to empty Republican rhetoric. How's that costume fitting?

    Oh, and there's nothing forcing you to have health insurance. You are more than welcome to not purchase health insurance.

    You don't seem to understand personal responsibility at all for if you did you would understand that personal choice is part of that personal responsibility.
    Says the person who thinks I should pay for other people's free health insurance.
    Last edited by Slyfox696; 10-31-13 at 12:48 AM.

  2. #442
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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Slyfox696;I'm quite grown, as evidenced by the fact I have no problem addressing what you say. You, however, have decided to once more avoid what I said and instead resort to empty Republican rhetoric. How's that costume fitting?

    Oh, and there's nothing forcing you to have health insurance. You are more than welcome to not purchase health insurance.

    Says the person who thinks I should pay for other people's free health insurance
    Nice novel, too bad you have been brainwashed by the Obama rhetoric. You aren't paying for other people's free healthcare unless that happens in your state. You want your state to implement ACA, go for it, but a national program is a prescription for disaster. Healthcare expenses are state and local, not federal. Too bad that fact escapes you

    If you are grown then act like it. Look at actual results and think for a change.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Nice novel, too bad you have been brainwashed by the Obama rhetoric. You aren't paying for other people's free healthcare unless that happens in your state.
    I've been paying for other people's healthcare for years, as I already explained. Not surprisingly, you didn't get it.

    If you are grown then act like it.
    Says the person constantly resorting to petty insults, empty rhetoric and deception. I really don't think I need you to tell me what to do or how to act, as I see you as one of the last persons I'd wish to emulate. Kindly keep your advice to yourself.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Which means the healthcare legislation was 900 pages. This isn't hard to understand.
    Wow, someone ought to check the temperature in hell, because Conservative finally was able to admit the truth when it works against Republicans. This is a big day for you, maybe you can use this as a launch pad towards future discussions.


    A) I like knowing insurance companies can't screw their customers by charging high premiums and not paying out (80% of premiums must be spent, or refunds granted)
    B) I like knowing that as our country has made a sizable shift towards putting people in institutions of higher education, parents can keep their children on their insurance for an extra year
    C) I like knowing people with debilitating medical conditions can no longer be denied health coverage
    D) I like knowing all insurance plans are required to cover at least the "essential health benefits", which prevents insurance companies from charging premiums while covering almost nothing.
    E) I like knowing I'm much less likely to be paying for those people who don't buy insurance and simply go to the emergency room for free healthcare.
    And the Nigerian prince will send you his treasure, you just gotta send him a bit of good faith cash....



    Now, you finally admitted the truth and finally answered my question. I suppose I shouldn't expect you to answer these questions without having to watch you avoid them for 15 posts, but I'll ask any way. Here's two more questions for you.

    1) Now that you have all but admitted Republicans are basically acting like children by not offering any improvements to legislation they claim is bad (by the way, your assertion legislation can be so broken nothing can be fixed is completely laughable and we both know it), but legislation everyone knows is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future, would you agree Republicans are basically contributing nothing to the benefit of Americans? Obamacare isn't going anywhere, so a mature adult would say, "Let's make the best of what we feel is a bad situation. Let's at least do 'this, this and this'.". Do you agree Republicans are not doing anything to help Americans, by throwing a tantrum about not getting something they've known they weren't going to get?
    First, you started your question with a non-sequitar, which was the only point you were going to accept (in spite of the reality of the situation)

    But ya, of course the solution is to give the arsonists a bunch of gas and a pile of matches and expect them to do the right thing...

    Honestly, the republicans not contributing (and doing everything in their capacity to fight this tooth and nail every step of the way is the best they can do to prevent this from getting implemented and fully destroying the republic. So, they are doing the best they can for the country... Unfortunately obamas koolaid drinkers are too short sighted and ill informed to know the damage they have done.

    In summary, at what point does a Republican politician have a duty to be realistic and say, "I don't like Obamacare, I don't want Obamacare, but I'll do what I can to make it the best for Americans until I have the power to repeal it"?
    Well... The same point where a democrat would have to look at the situation and say "f--- me he scammed me good, how could I have bought those lies for so long."

    2) You keep talking about personal responsibility, but you keep advocating to remove Obamacare, which would put us back with the system we had previously in which people like me with insurance were paying higher premiums to cover all the people who receive free healthcare in the emergency room. What could be more personally responsible then paying for your own healthcare (at least some of it, if not all), and not relying on everyone else to subsidize your free health care?
    It's called "charity care" and has no effect on your premiums, which, if you are like the average costs you roughly twice as much for less benefits...

    It's not a subsidy, it's part of the hippocratic oath.

    You actually pushed for a situation where now, because joe schmoe has bad habits they are affecting your rates and so the nanny state will get to tell him what to do, how to act, what and when to eat, what to drink... Because its not just his health that is affected its everyone.... So, your statement WAS false, but is now true. Thank yourself for your own short-sightedness.
    If you truly believe in personal responsiblity, you should be celebrating the idea of everyone having to pay for insurance, and not have people like me subsidize free emergency room visits. So why do you keep talking about personal responsibility, but advocate a system where I have to pay increased premiums to cover free emergency room visits?
    Not the case, see above.

    There are two more questions for you. I suspect it'll take another 15 posts or so for you to answer them directly, but hey, you made great strides with your last post. Maybe you'll surprise me by discussing this reasonably and not falling back on Republican rhetoric.
    Those two "questions" we're more like statements and are really just baiting to try to make another spun point that is only barely what could be called accurate.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, they''ll do that anyway. The thing you have to understand about this bunch, is the old mantra, "by any means necessary." When this fails, and it will, as designed, they will move to single payer by force, as a crisis mitigation. Obama alrady projected that in 2008, at least 7 times.
    Oh! Obama is a real Dear. Don't get me wrong.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    And the Nigerian prince will send you his treasure, you just gotta send him a bit of good faith cash....

    First, you started your question with a non-sequitar, which was the only point you were going to accept (in spite of the reality of the situation)

    But ya, of course the solution is to give the arsonists a bunch of gas and a pile of matches and expect them to do the right thing...

    Honestly, the republicans not contributing (and doing everything in their capacity to fight this tooth and nail every step of the way is the best they can do to prevent this from getting implemented and fully destroying the republic. So, they are doing the best they can for the country... Unfortunately obamas koolaid drinkers are too short sighted and ill informed to know the damage they have done.



    Well... The same point where a democrat would have to look at the situation and say "f--- me he scammed me good, how could I have bought those lies for so long."



    It's called "charity care" and has no effect on your premiums, which, if you are like the average costs you roughly twice as much for less benefits...

    It's not a subsidy, it's part of the hippocratic oath.

    You actually pushed for a situation where now, because joe schmoe has bad habits they are affecting your rates and so the nanny state will get to tell him what to do, how to act, what and when to eat, what to drink... Because its not just his health that is affected its everyone.... So, your statement WAS false, but is now true. Thank yourself for your own short-sightedness.


    Not the case, see above.



    Those two "questions" we're more like statements and are really just baiting to try to make another spun point that is only barely what could be called accurate.
    I'll be happy to address the things you say here as soon as you make both of your apologies to me.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I've been paying for other people's healthcare for years, as I already explained. Not surprisingly, you didn't get it.

    Says the person constantly resorting to petty insults, empty rhetoric and deception. I really don't think I need you to tell me what to do or how to act, as I see you as one of the last persons I'd wish to emulate. Kindly keep your advice to yourself.
    You ask questions over and over again and then when your questions are answered you ask more questions ignoring the answers given. When are you going to answer a direct question?

    How can a group of people support a woman's right to choose, a person's right to marry whoever they want, and not support a person's right not to have health insurance?
    Your sole purpose here is to bait and troll but what you do with that is show your own ignorance on the topic.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You ask questions over and over again
    Only until I get an answer to the question. Don't want me to ask over and over again? Answer it the first time.

    When are you going to answer a direct question?
    I did, and you ignored my response in favor of your standard empty rhetoric. You asked what I liked and I told you, and instead of addressing the things I said, you came back with:

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Wow, you really bought the Administration spin. Amazing how someone has so much confidence in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded mandates for Medicare, is watching doctors and hospitals dropping Medicare, has millions of people having their insurance dropped magnifying the Obama lies.

    You are indeed getting a transformed America into that European socialist model that is bankrupt. It is sad seeing how brainwashed you and others are. Why do you have so much faith in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded liabilities, has had millions of cancellation notices going out which magnifies the Obama lies, and is 17 trillion in debt?
    ...which is no way addressed any of the things I said in response to your question. It's almost as if you just copy and paste the same things over and over again, regardless of whether it has any relevance to the discussion.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I'll be happy to address the things you say here as soon as you make both of your apologies to me.
    Ok, I'm sorry... You're not short sighted, you have it thought out and are intentional in supporting corruption and the implications, I'm sorry for giving you the benefit of doubt by suggesting otherwise.

    I'm sorry, you don't need to keep alinsky books in hand, you have mastered the techniques of the "radicals".

    I'm sorry that you have dodged every question posed to you to act like a spoiled child...

    I'm sorry that we answered the question as you asked them rather than answering the question the way you wanted them to be answered.

    I'm sorry that you don't understand about charity care and would prefer to have them actually influence your insurance costs.

    I'm sorry that I pointed out your fallacious points and ingenuous questions.

    Was there more there? Did I miss anything to apologize for that I didn't address.

    Oh wait, I'm sorry I suggested that a Cloward and Piven model might not be in the best interest of the country (I didn't state this one, but it's been unspokenly implied)

    Edit: can't believe I forgot; I'm sorry for suggesting that lord Obama might be running a pimp game in the form of the Nigerian email scam against the American people by promising something that will never be delivered if the people just bow down to his will.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Was there more there? Did I miss anything to apologize for that I didn't address.
    Yes, you did. You forgot to apologize for the two things you actually need to apologize for, which was falsely accusing me of changing my question when it remained the same question from the very beginning (as I proved and you are apparently still making false statements about) and for calling me a liar when you could not provide even one piece of evidence of something I said to you which was inaccurate.

    I await your apologies for both of those.

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