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Thread: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    But, that is exactly what repubs will do though isn't it? Look, I think you know that I don't like what is going on here, but the likely push by repubs by 2016 will be, "elect us, because we can manage it better.." We have no real voice today.
    Enhancing State Rights would seem to be the only option available, if it is possible. Perhaps by the time of the next Presidential elections the people will realize what happened but by then it will be argued again that 'rights' are being removed. Of course it will also be racist and a war on woman to take down Obamacare, and enough people might still buy that. I certainly share your concerns.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, they''ll do that anyway. The thing you have to understand about this bunch, is the old mantra, "by any means necessary." When this fails, and it will, as designed, they will move to single payer by force, as a crisis mitigation. Obama alrady projected that in 2008, at least 7 times.
    Remember good old Rahm?? Like he said "can't let a good crisis go to waste".

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    But, that is exactly what repubs will do though isn't it? Look, I think you know that I don't like what is going on here, but the likely push by repubs by 2016 will be, "elect us, because we can manage it better.." We have no real voice today.
    We may have the most uneducated electorate today in history since results don't matter. I would make a poster of the economic numbers that Obama inherited and post the numbers today. How anyone can support those results is beyond comprehension

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    No, it was perfectly. The Congress was asked to vote on 2400 pages of legislation, it just happened that 906 pages of it were healthcare related.
    Which means the healthcare legislation was 900 pages. This isn't hard to understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    If you want to know what the Republicans have offered, the answer is NOTHING
    Wow, someone ought to check the temperature in hell, because Conservative finally was able to admit the truth when it works against Republicans. This is a big day for you, maybe you can use this as a launch pad towards future discussions.

    tell us exactly what you like about the law?
    A) I like knowing insurance companies can't screw their customers by charging high premiums and not paying out (80% of premiums must be spent, or refunds granted)
    B) I like knowing that as our country has made a sizable shift towards putting people in institutions of higher education, parents can keep their children on their insurance for an extra year
    C) I like knowing people with debilitating medical conditions can no longer be denied health coverage
    D) I like knowing all insurance plans are required to cover at least the "essential health benefits", which prevents insurance companies from charging premiums while covering almost nothing.
    E) I like knowing I'm much less likely to be paying for those people who don't buy insurance and simply go to the emergency room for free healthcare.

    Now, you finally admitted the truth and finally answered my question. I suppose I shouldn't expect you to answer these questions without having to watch you avoid them for 15 posts, but I'll ask any way. Here's two more questions for you.

    1) Now that you have all but admitted Republicans are basically acting like children by not offering any improvements to legislation they claim is bad (by the way, your assertion legislation can be so broken nothing can be fixed is completely laughable and we both know it), but legislation everyone knows is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future, would you agree Republicans are basically contributing nothing to the benefit of Americans? Obamacare isn't going anywhere, so a mature adult would say, "Let's make the best of what we feel is a bad situation. Let's at least do 'this, this and this'.". Do you agree Republicans are not doing anything to help Americans, by throwing a tantrum about not getting something they've known they weren't going to get?

    In summary, at what point does a Republican politician have a duty to be realistic and say, "I don't like Obamacare, I don't want Obamacare, but I'll do what I can to make it the best for Americans until I have the power to repeal it"?

    2) You keep talking about personal responsibility, but you keep advocating to remove Obamacare, which would put us back with the system we had previously in which people like me with insurance were paying higher premiums to cover all the people who receive free healthcare in the emergency room. What could be more personally responsible then paying for your own healthcare (at least some of it, if not all), and not relying on everyone else to subsidize your free health care?

    If you truly believe in personal responsiblity, you should be celebrating the idea of everyone having to pay for insurance, and not have people like me subsidize free emergency room visits. So why do you keep talking about personal responsibility, but advocate a system where I have to pay increased premiums to cover free emergency room visits?


    There are two more questions for you. I suspect it'll take another 15 posts or so for you to answer them directly, but hey, you made great strides with your last post. Maybe you'll surprise me by discussing this reasonably and not falling back on Republican rhetoric.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Cont'd due to post character limits...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    "Likely"? That suggests you don't know why it was passed either and knowing it needed reform suggests further that it never should have been passed at all.
    No, it suggests I have not interviewed every single Congress person who voted against it to be able to provide you with their specific answer. Don't read more into my answer than is there.

    I can tell you why I would have voted for it, but I cannot tell you the specific motivations of each person who voted yay. As far as the reform part goes, I was referring to how the system before Obamacare desperately needed reform.

    Both sides? The Republicans voted solidly against it.
    And have spent the last three years spreading lies and mistruths about it, not to mention getting numerous states to fight the implementation of it so they could claim it was a failure.

    So yes, both sides have failed to discuss it honestly.

    Didn't Barrack Obama call for bipartisan support
    Maybe? I don't care if he did or not, it has nothing to do with how our system of government technically works. A piece of legislation does not need bipartisan support, it simply needs to pass according to the rules set forth in the chamber it is being presented.

    That's what real leaders would have done rather than what's being served up now.
    The "real leader" nonsense is simply nonsense. Republicans had no interest in working with President Obama and never have. They made it priority number 1 to make sure nothing gets done under his Presidency.

    A real leader is someone in charge of a group who have an interest in being led. The Republican Party had no such interest.

    That's incorrect.
    No, it's not.

    Who really cares if it sucks for any political party? Shouldn't the welfare of the country come first?
    Yes, but you know as well as I do those people who voted for the Democrats who passed this legislation did so because they felt the people they voted for would best serve the welfare of this country.

    You're coming at this as if your opinion Obamacare is terrible is a fact. It's not, it's simply your political viewpoint. There are many many other people who feel what we have is much better than what we had, even if it's not quite what they ultimately want.

    yes, it was passed for political and ideological reasons but this "shambles" you speak of was the best in the world. Not perfect, but this was not 'reform' as was being sold. This is destruction.
    The best in the world? By what metric? The cost effectiveness of US healthcare is one of the worst in the developed world. Do we have brilliant doctors and access to some of the best medicine? Absolutely, but usually only if you have the money to spend. But our country spends more than almost every other developed country in the world, and in return rank very low on efficiency.

    It's remarkable how low America places in health care efficiency: among the 48 countries included in the Bloomberg study, the U.S. ranks 46th, outpacing just Serbia and Brazil. Once that sinks in, try this one on for size: the U.S. ranks worse than China, Algeria, and Iran.

    But the sheer numbers are really what's humbling about this list: the U.S. ranks second in health care cost per capita ($8,608), only to be outspent by Switzerland ($9,121) -- which, for the record, boasts a top-10 health care system in terms of efficiency. Furthermore, the U.S. is tops in terms of health care cost relative to GDP, with 17.2 percent of the country's wealth spent on medical care for every American.


    In other words, the world's richest country spends more of its money on health care while getting less than almost every other nation in return.
    The Most Efficient Health Care Systems In The World (INFOGRAPHICS)

    Our system was not the best in the world, not even close.


    So in your mind it's all about either Democrats or Republicans getting their way
    No, that's how it works in reality. I can't stand people who play team politics, who seem to only care about regurgitating a political party talking points while never giving a rat's ass about the facts. But I'm also realistic about the fact it's just the way our system is currently being run.

    and the economy and the long term interests of the people and the country doesn't appear to be much of a factor.
    Of course not, the only factor which matters to most of these politicians is serving the interests of the big money donors. Being a Congress person is about getting rich, not about serving the interests of this country.

    But, within that system, we have to take what we can get. The healthcare system we had before Obamacare had to go. There's no question reform was absolutely needed. And the system we have now, if tweaked to improve the areas where the flaws are egregious, could be a better system than what we had. Only time will tell if it truly will be better.
    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Ya, one time where you got the wrong answer you were hoping for, and a few times where you were told the actual answer that you rejected because it wouldn't allow you to make the point you are trying to make, so then you clarified making sure that proposals made were excluded (a disingenuous question) baiting for the answer that allows you to make that point.
    It was the same question I asked from the very beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Now, tell me...aside from getting rid of Obamacare, exactly what improvements have Republicans formally proposed? The medical device tax? Okay, it's something which seems to have support on both sides of the aisle. It will likely be amended. What else have Republicans proposed?
    That was the very first post I asked the question. You can go back and double check if you'd like. I'll await your apology for making a provably false statement.

    Also, I await your apology for claiming I lied about something I said to you. You seem to have quit trying to claim that I have, so I can only assume you realize you were wrong in saying so. So I'll await both of your apologies in your next post.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Slyfox696;1062487722]Which means the healthcare legislation was 900 pages. This isn't hard to understand.
    Wow, someone ought to check the temperature in hell, because Conservative finally was able to admit the truth when it works against Republicans. This is a big day for you, maybe you can use this as a launch pad towards future discussions.


    A) I like knowing insurance companies can't screw their customers by charging high premiums and not paying out (80% of premiums must be spent, or refunds granted)
    B) I like knowing that as our country has made a sizable shift towards putting people in institutions of higher education, parents can keep their children on their insurance for an extra year
    C) I like knowing people with debilitating medical conditions can no longer be denied health coverage
    D) I like knowing all insurance plans are required to cover at least the "essential health benefits", which prevents insurance companies from charging premiums while covering almost nothing.
    E) I like knowing I'm much less likely to be paying for those people who don't buy insurance and simply go to the emergency room for free healthcare.


    Wow, you really bought the Administration spin. Amazing how someone has so much confidence in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded mandates for Medicare, is watching doctors and hospitals dropping Medicare, has millions of people having their insurance dropped magnifying the Obama lies.

    You are indeed getting a transformed America into that European socialist model that is bankrupt. It is sad seeing how brainwashed you and others are. Why do you have so much faith in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded liabilities, has had millions of cancellation notices going out which magnifies the Obama lies, and is 17 trillion in debt?

    Now, you finally admitted the truth and finally answered my question. I suppose I shouldn't expect you to answer these questions without having to watch you avoid them for 15 posts, but I'll ask any way. Here's two more questions for you.

    1) Now that you have all but admitted Republicans are basically acting like children by not offering any improvements to legislation they claim is bad (by the way, your assertion legislation can be so broken nothing can be fixed is completely laughable and we both know it), but legislation everyone knows is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future, would you agree Republicans are basically contributing nothing to the benefit of Americans? Obamacare isn't going anywhere, so a mature adult would say, "Let's make the best of what we feel is a bad situation. Let's at least do 'this, this and this'.". Do you agree Republicans are not doing anything to help Americans, by throwing a tantrum about not getting something they've known they weren't going to get?

    In summary, at what point does a Republican politician have a duty to be realistic and say, "I don't like Obamacare, I don't want Obamacare, but I'll do what I can to make it the best for Americans until I have the power to repeal it"?
    Actually it is you acting like a child, the Republicans are doing what the public elected them to do. obamacare has less than a 45% approval rating and wait until you see Obama's rating in the next week or so when the news hits about the millions losing healthcare coverage.

    The Republicans are doing something to Help Americans, trying to defund and repeal Obamacare. that is the answer to your question number one. You think Obamacare once implemented is going to be easy to repeal? How naïve are you? You have no idea what is in the bill but I am sure you will grow up one day, I did.



    2) You keep talking about personal responsibility, but you keep advocating to remove Obamacare, which would put us back with the system we had previously in which people like me with insurance were paying higher premiums to cover all the people who receive free healthcare in the emergency room. What could be more personally responsible then paying for your own healthcare (at least some of it, if not all), and not relying on everyone else to subsidize your free health care?

    If you truly believe in personal responsiblity, you should be celebrating the idea of everyone having to pay for insurance, and not have people like me subsidize free emergency room visits. So why do you keep talking about personal responsibility, but advocate a system where I have to pay increased premiums to cover free emergency room visits?
    I don't think it is the government's place to force people to buy health insurance but I do believe it is the individuals responsibility to pay for the services they use. I employed over 1200 employees, offered both full and part time employees full healthcare benefits and we paid most of the cost, 50% chose to participate. Should I have forced the other 50% to participate? Do you understand freedom at all? How can anyone support freedom of choice and then support Obamacare?

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Although they are stopping short of delaying the individual mandate, it is clear now that the WH is severely nervous about the roll out, and what their tantrum over the shut down, and their refusal to even negotiate the delay is now going to cost them politically.

    This may have turned out to be the most brilliant strategy of the TEA Party to date...Think about it...Cruz, and the rest, have solidly established the republican party as the party against Obamacare, and the individual mandate. Now, it is failing right out of the gate, and those in the know, are saying that there are worse problems as it continues to go into effect. Setting up the antics of demo's, of refusing to talk, name calling, and the whole gambit of basic Alinsky tactics that demo's today employ as reasons NOT to vote for them any time in the future.

    Obama's Job Approval Declines to 44.5% in 19th Quarter

    Poll: Nearly half say replace everyone in Congress

    I think demo's are in for a rough 2014, and 2016...It is possible to see the house majority strengthen, and the loss of the Senate to repub control in 2014, regardless of the MSM running cover for demo's as expected.

    What say you?
    I suppose the best part of OBamacare now is "competition" - it's like getting tickets to cubs games.... Maybe if they opened up box offices they'd have people sleeping on the street and **** like tyring to get a ps4 or the newest Iphone.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Maybe you'll surprise me by discussing this reasonably and not falling back on Republican rhetoric.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Wow, you really bought the Administration spin. Amazing how someone has so much confidence in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded mandates for Medicare, is watching doctors and hospitals dropping Medicare, has millions of people having their insurance dropped magnifying the Obama lies.

    You are indeed getting a transformed America into that European socialist model that is bankrupt. It is sad seeing how brainwashed you and others are. Why do you have so much faith in a Federal Govt. that has trillions in unfunded liabilities, has had millions of cancellation notices going out which magnifies the Obama lies, and is 17 trillion in debt?
    I knew it was unlikely, but I'm disappointed all the same. I thought we turned a corner, where you'd leave the useless rhetoric out and simply discuss facts, but apparently you're uncomfortable doing so. It's okay, every team needs cheerleaders and I guess it's possible you fit well in the costume.

    So...just how much do you get paid to post that same stupid and false nonsense over and over? Or is it just something you do when you realize you have no real counter argument to salient points made by your opponent, a type of defensive mechanism, if you will?

    The Republicans are doing something to Help Americans
    No, they are not, they are throwing a temper tantrum because they are not getting their way. It is utterly stupid to think repeal is going to happen while Democrats control the Senate and Presidency, and yet, as you have admitted, Republicans keep doing said stupid thing.

    I don't think it is the government's place to force people to buy health insurance but I do believe it is the individuals responsibility to pay for the services they use. I employed over 1200 employees, offered both full and part time employees full healthcare benefits and we paid most of the cost, 50% chose to participate. Should I have forced the other 50% to participate? Do you understand freedom at all? How can anyone support freedom of choice and then support Obamacare?
    I understand freedom just fine. I also understand reality. For example...

    For those who cannot afford health insurance or healthcare but encounter an event where they need it, should they A) go to the emergency room without paying, which drive up medical costs, which force my premium higher or B) simply die?

    Because that's really the only two options they had before Obamacare. Either force people like me to pay for their healthcare or do without, which could in some cases lead to death.


    You claim to believe in personal responsibility, but you really don't. Someone who truly believes in the concept of personal responsibility would realize that making people cover the cost of their own healthcare needs is the very essence of personal responsibility. Your position is little more than empty Republican rhetoric. Enjoy the cheerleader outfit.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    No, it suggests I have not interviewed every single Congress person who voted against it to be able to provide you with their specific answer. Don't read more into my answer than is there. I can tell you why I would have voted for it, but I cannot tell you the specific motivations of each person who voted yay.
    Then your answer should have been Yes.
    No, it suggests I have not inteAs far as the reform part goes, I was referring to how the system before Obamacare desperately needed reform.
    Reform, yes. Obamacare, No.
    And have spent the last three years spreading lies and mistruths about it, not to mention getting numerous states to fight the implementation of it so they could claim it was a failure.
    It has not proven to be a success so far. If, after three years and almost a billion dollars, they cant even set up a web site, how do you think the rest of it will go? But belief remains strong, I suppose.
    So yes, both sides have failed to discuss it honestly.
    Only one side voted for it, and against public concerns. That would be the Democrats.
    Maybe? I don't care if he did or not, it has nothing to do with how our system of government technically works. A piece of legislation does not need bipartisan support, it simply needs to pass according to the rules set forth in the chamber it is being presented.
    He did call for bipartisan support but it was never there. And there is a difference between what can be done and what should be done. The American people should always come first.
    The "real leader" nonsense is simply nonsense. Republicans had no interest in working with President Obama and never have. They made it priority number 1 to make sure nothing gets done under his Presidency.
    It certainly has become nonsense but that was seldom the case in previous administrations. Other presidents have learned how to work within the provisions laid down according to the Constitution. This President has been an obvious failure in that area.
    A real leader is someone in charge of a group who have an interest in being led. The Republican Party had no such interest.
    It shouldn't need to be said that Barrack Obama is not the leader of the Republican party.
    Yes, but you know as well as I do those people who voted for the Democrats who passed this legislation did so because they felt the people they voted for would best serve the welfare of this country.
    They wanted free stuff, like their Obamaphones and food stamps. Those Democrats who voted for Obamacare had no idea what was in it, much less their constituents.
    You're coming at this as if your opinion Obamacare is terrible is a fact. It's not, it's simply your political viewpoint. There are many many other people who feel what we have is much better than what we had, even if it's not quite what they ultimately want.
    Does it need to be pointed out that, so far, t has been a divisive and expensive boondoggle? It is being supported by those who have faith moreso than those who have an understanding of fiscal realities.
    The best in the world? By what metric? The cost effectiveness of US healthcare is one of the worst in the developed world. Do we have brilliant doctors and access to some of the best medicine? Absolutely, but usually only if you have the money to spend. But our country spends more than almost every other developed country in the world, and in return rank very low on efficiency.
    And you feel that Obamacare will turn that around? The fact remains that wealthy Canadians, Europeans, etc, went to the US for their health care problems and the poor were always looked after. Allowing non citizens free health care probably cost the previous system more than anything but this was largely supported by liberals, and of course will eventually bust any system.
    Our system was not the best in the world, not even close.
    You're probably not all that familiar with other health care systems but whatever shortcomings there might have been will not be solved by this Obama do over.
    No, that's how it works in reality. I can't stand people who play team politics, who seem to only care about regurgitating a political party talking points while never giving a rat's ass about the facts. But I'm also realistic about the fact it's just the way our system is currently being run.
    More free enterprise in the health care system and tort reform would have helped the previous system but it is now too lae fr that. And there is no tort reform so who will be paying the John Edwards ambulance chasers now?
    Of course not, the only factor which matters to most of these politicians is serving the interests of the big money donors. Being a Congress person is about getting rich, not about serving the interests of this country.
    That's certainly true about the President.
    But, within that system, we have to take what we can get. The healthcare system we had before Obamacare had to go. There's no question reform was absolutely needed. And the system we have now, if tweaked to improve the areas where the flaws are egregious, could be a better system than what we had. Only time will tell if it truly will be better.
    Yes, we'll see. But I'd say its off to a very rocky and expensive start, few know where the truth lies and few know what the consequences might be. It truly is a leap of faith, which doesn't seem a very responsible thing to me.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I knew it was unlikely, but I'm disappointed all the same. I thought we turned a corner, where you'd leave the useless rhetoric out and simply discuss facts, but apparently you're uncomfortable doing so. It's okay, every team needs cheerleaders and I guess it's possible you fit well in the costume.

    So...just how much do you get paid to post that same stupid and false nonsense over and over? Or is it just something you do when you realize you have no real counter argument to salient points made by your opponent, a type of defensive mechanism, if you will?

    No, they are not, they are throwing a temper tantrum because they are not getting their way. It is utterly stupid to think repeal is going to happen while Democrats control the Senate and Presidency, and yet, as you have admitted, Republicans keep doing said stupid thing.


    I understand freedom just fine. I also understand reality. For example...

    For those who cannot afford health insurance or healthcare but encounter an event where they need it, should they A) go to the emergency room without paying, which drive up medical costs, which force my premium higher or B) simply die?

    Because that's really the only two options they had before Obamacare. Either force people like me to pay for their healthcare or do without, which could in some cases lead to death.


    You claim to believe in personal responsibility, but you really don't. Someone who truly believes in the concept of personal responsibility would realize that making people cover the cost of their own healthcare needs is the very essence of personal responsibility. Your position is little more than empty Republican rhetoric. Enjoy the cheerleader outfit.
    Grow up, kid, one of these days it is going to happen. You don't understand freedom at all. How can a group of people support a woman's right to choose, a person's right to marry whoever they want, and not support a person's right not to have health insurance?

    You don't seem to understand personal responsibility at all for if you did you would understand that personal choice is part of that personal responsibility.

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