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Thread: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, that's a fair response Michael, and I would only say that 1. I don't know what country you are hailing from, so I can't make any assessment of that.

    One problem, that people that only see extremes in party affiliations is with labeling in the MSM drives the derision. So when Rachel Maddow, and the others on MSNBC started the whole "teabagger" thing with their snickers, and their childish undertones of the sexual connotations was downright over the top, and those who use it regularly IMHO can not be taken seriously, and you seem like a much smarter guy when it isn't about scoring some cheap shots.

    Libertarians have some valid points, but as with any ideology all can produce extremes. A word which I hate using today because of its very notion in the news today, conjures up visions of radical terrorists. But, in any case, a balance is the way we have done things in this country since its founding, and only until recent history, say 80 years has the shift been toward less obvious changes that promote certain traps, and tools of politic like marginalizing, and less than honest consideration. But I think if we can drop the inflammatory language, and move from there, we get much better back and forth....We just proved that Michael. Thanks.
    You appear to be quite sane with your politics and so that leaves me wondering why you are even concerned with the extremist element of conservatism and the protecting of their image. It strikes me that you would rather be showing your disdain for such. And then perhaps more importantly, your fear of what they are doing to moderate conservatism.

    I don't think Rachel Maddow even used the term or had anything to do with originating it. I do know that it's nothing more than an extremist left leaning sideshow as is Fox news for the extreme right. I would hope we could confine our discussion to something that is confined to a more moderate approach.

    My mention of the childish overtones of 'sexual connotations' of the term was only intended to illustrate just how childish the notion really is. I probably shouldn't discuss it too much because it was the stated reason why I shouldn't be using the term, by one of the modertors. For more details contact me personally. Suffice to say it's rubbish!

    I'm Canadian and have tried to make that well known.

    As to 'libertarians', my opinion is that a closer analysis of their ideology always leads to the uncovering of the fact that they really don't have any valid or good ideas that are original to the philosophy. Indeed, when questioned they almost always resort to claims of them not being understood. Nonsense at least on my part as I took part on supplyside forum and Jude Wanniski's Talkshop for about ten years where nearly all of the participants were libertarians. If you are suggesting that they are predisposed to terrorism then I'm totally unaware of it.

    Did I address all your points satisfactorily?

    One additional point I would like to make is that I don't see a real dividing line between conservatism and liberalism. I see my own government's working as a blend between the two and so consequently have no real animosity toward conservatives. It doesn't have to be that way, but I also believe that it is in your country to a much higher degree than it is in mine.

    If we compared Obama to Bush2 on the basis of liberal/conservative alone then I think we would find very little difference. Perhaps an understanding of that would lead to less hate on both sides.

  2. #322
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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Nonsense. If people are being dropped because they had insurance which exceeded the minimum required by Obamacare, that is not the fault of Obamacare.
    What you are saying here to Bman is correct, however, maybe you can address something for me....In the roll out this past month, as well as the numbers we see coming out on enrollment, there is a real purposely misleading component to what is being put out here....

    1. the administration is saying that they have over 700k "applications" over and over, and we know that you must fill out an application to have even have the ability to compare policies, and even when they knew that little trick wasn't going to work, and put in a button to see the policies they are still not even close to what a final cost may be for shoppers.

    2. the next mis truth they are telling, or to be fair not explaining, is that of those that they are touting as 'signed up' especially in states like KY where the democrat governor went along with the plan and started their own exchange, is that roughly 85% or better of those signed up are on Medicaid, not purchasing anything...That is misleading at best.

    If Obama, and demo's want to get this to work, they are going to have to be a lot more honest than that...I don't know if they can be.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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  3. #323
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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    You appear to be quite sane with your politics and so that leaves me wondering why you are even concerned with the extremist element of conservatism and the protecting of their image. It strikes me that you would rather be showing your disdain for such. And then perhaps more importantly, your fear of what they are doing to moderate conservatism.

    I don't think Rachel Maddow even used the term or had anything to do with originating it. I do know that it's nothing more than an extremist left leaning sideshow as is Fox news for the extreme right. I would hope we could confine our discussion to something that is confined to a more moderate approach.

    My mention of the childish overtones of 'sexual connotations' of the term was only intended to illustrate just how childish the notion really is. I probably shouldn't discuss it too much because it was the stated reason why I shouldn't be using the term, by one of the modertors. For more details contact me personally. Suffice to say it's rubbish!

    I'm Canadian and have tried to make that well known.

    As to 'libertarians', my opinion is that a closer analysis of their ideology always leads to the uncovering of the fact that they really don't have any valid or good ideas that are original to the philosophy. Indeed, when questioned they almost always resort to claims of them not being understood. Nonsense at least on my part as I took part on supplyside forum and Jude Wanniski's Talkshop for about ten years where nearly all of the participants were libertarians. If you are suggesting that they are predisposed to terrorism then I'm totally unaware of it.

    Did I address all your points satisfactorily?

    One additional point I would like to make is that I don't see a real dividing line between conservatism and liberalism. I see my own government's working as a blend between the two and so consequently have no real animosity toward conservatives. It doesn't have to be that way, but I also believe that it is in your country to a much higher degree than it is in mine.

    If we compared Obama to Bush2 on the basis of liberal/conservative alone then I think we would find very little difference. Perhaps an understanding of that would lead to less hate on both sides.
    Absolutely outstanding post!

    I have a whole different view of you at this point than I did before I settled down and really talked to you, which was my fault.

    Funny on the moderate conservative thing though, although I see myself much like that, others in here that have posted with me for the last 10 years plus would probably scoff at that, and part of that is totally my own fault, but you have had a hand in convincing me that I have got to moderate my posting style, along with others in here.

    I really believe it is about time.

    Thanks.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Absolutely outstanding post!

    I have a whole different view of you at this point than I did before I settled down and really talked to you, which was my fault.

    Funny on the moderate conservative thing though, although I see myself much like that, others in here that have posted with me for the last 10 years plus would probably scoff at that, and part of that is totally my own fault, but you have had a hand in convincing me that I have got to moderate my posting style, along with others in here.

    I really believe it is about time.

    Thanks.
    Thank you. I think I can remain capable of sane discussion with sane people such as you. However, we need to keep in mind that many on both sides are not the least bit interested in doing that. I will also admit that I haven't attempted to come off as a moderate. But I wonder if there is much value in doing that as opposed to taking the opposite extremist position to those I consider to be extremists.

    If a supporter of the TP wants to discuss philosophy and leave out the undesirable extremist elements then I'm more than willing. I see very little evidence of a preference to do that and so I can only see them as representing the other. So if I hear an argument against Obama which I perceive to be invalid then I immediately perceive it as the party having bad intentions. I really don't see the value of moderating my approach in the face of that sort of behaviour and so I'll fight fire with fire. And I'll also continue to start a few of my own fires with that kind of people here. Otherwise, I don't really see much of a need for you to moderate your own approach either. And I think you are fully aware of no matter what you do you are still going to be accused of being a RINO. Or maybe a CINO? Just keep in mind that you are aware of what conservatism means and they don't.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    Its entirely possible that the elimination of pre-existing conditions, elimination of no-drop-of-coverage, and the like are too expensive. If its so expensive, like some of the examples CBS news has been reporting, that people just can't afford insurance anymore, we could see another round of bailouts to prevent a catastrophic systematic failure of the health insurance market.

    The only way out of the death spiral, would be to allow insurers to re-create policies/markets that are exempt from the law's coverage mandates. Don't bother suggesting single-payer as a way out, because of two reasons: 1) It would take way too long to implement(see existing implementation issues). 2) Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me( see existing implementation issues).
    You obviously don't have a pre-existing condition or you wouldn't be saying that. We need to make the effort to at least match other western nations. Are you saying we as a nation are inferior by nature and can't hope to give our population that same benefits as Canada or France? This loser attitude is distressing and is a symptom of greed. Backwards thinking is another.

  6. #326
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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What you are saying here to Bman is correct, however, maybe you can address something for me....In the roll out this past month, as well as the numbers we see coming out on enrollment, there is a real purposely misleading component to what is being put out here....

    1. the administration is saying that they have over 700k "applications" over and over, and we know that you must fill out an application to have even have the ability to compare policies, and even when they knew that little trick wasn't going to work, and put in a button to see the policies they are still not even close to what a final cost may be for shoppers.

    2. the next mis truth they are telling, or to be fair not explaining, is that of those that they are touting as 'signed up' especially in states like KY where the democrat governor went along with the plan and started their own exchange, is that roughly 85% or better of those signed up are on Medicaid, not purchasing anything...That is misleading at best.

    If Obama, and demo's want to get this to work, they are going to have to be a lot more honest than that...I don't know if they can be.
    You're absolutely right. What they are saying is, at best, misleading because, as you said, you have to register to even browse plans or find out if you qualify for subsidies. As far as those signing up in other states and those signing up belonging to Medicaid, I'd say two things. 1) The Medicaid expansion is part of Obamacare. 2) if people are receiving coverage who previously did not, this should be celebrated, regardless of your political affiliation.

    I agree with you, what's coming out regarding the "successes" is/can be misleading. But it's just part of the game being played by both sides right now. Republicans are using obscure examples of some random person who claims to have been negatively affected and from this are claiming Obamacare is a failure. Democrats are taking those who registered an account and pointing to the high numbers and are claiming success. At the end of the day, both sides are playing the political game because NEITHER party is making a claim which challenges the truth. And the truth is that it doesn't matter how many have signed up or not signed up, everyone WILL have to have coverage or pay the fine/tax.

    That's just the simple fact. You'll either have coverage or you'll pay the fine/tax. Both parties spinning their made up successes and failures are largely irrelevant and is little more than political posturing.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Do you haven any idea what affects life expectancy? Figure it out and get back to me. The best medical system in the world doesn't expand life expectancy if you destroy it by personal habits. The choices in this country are the costs of freedom. People choose to do drugs, people choose to buy from fast food restaurants, people choose to drink too much, people choose not to exercise, and it goes on. Do you expect the govt. to regulate those activities as well?

    You tell me that the Canadian system is working but you have no proof.

    Your disdain for the Tea Party is built on ignorance, yours
    Of course the HC system is working in Canada and it dozens of other nations too. Believe it or not it is possible to cover everyone at half what we pay and have better outcomes. Just because you are healthy and think you have good insurance is not an excuse for you to want this failed system to continue forever. We need to change and somebody needs to stick their neck out and get it done.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Of course the HC system is working in Canada and it dozens of other nations too. Believe it or not it is possible to cover everyone at half what we pay and have better outcomes. Just because you are healthy and think you have good insurance is not an excuse for you to want this failed system to continue forever. We need to change and somebody needs to stick their neck out and get it done.
    If our country would spend half the amount of time tweaking the problems which exist and will continue to show themselves in Obamacare as we do arguing the political extremes of it, it would be of great benefit to everyone.

    It amazes me how otherwise rational people can act so stupidly when it goes against their party politics. There is absolutely no question our health insurance system is broken. People like me, who pay health insurance, have been subsidizing those without it who make the emergency room visits for decades now. My cousin is an ER doctor and he once said roughly 50% of emergency room visits go unpaid. The question I always have is do citizens really think the hospital just simply chooses to eat those losses? Of course not, they pass on the costs, where they eventually trickle back down to me and my insurance plan (or otherwise my thousand dollar jello dessert).

    We need a change in the way our healthcare/insurance system was working. I have no doubt there will be problems, both foreseen and unforeseen. Instead of bitching in politically partisan tones (which is only done because it raises bribes/campaign donations), it'd be nice if people were to sit down and actually figure out where the problems are and work to fix them. But that's not nearly as profitable, so we have what we have.

  9. #329
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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Of course the HC system is working in Canada and it dozens of other nations too. Believe it or not it is possible to cover everyone at half what we pay and have better outcomes. Just because you are healthy and think you have good insurance is not an excuse for you to want this failed system to continue forever. We need to change and somebody needs to stick their neck out and get it done.
    That is your opinion, want to pay Canadian taxes or European taxes for it? Do you understand personal responsibility at all. If it is possible to cover everyone at half the cost then why isn't medicare more effective and that is total govt. control. Why is it that doctors are dropping Medicare? Why is it you cannot see waste, fraud, and abuse as a problem and understand that Obama has no interest in really correcting the problem?

    You buy what you are told but have nothing to base your opinion on other than the opinion of others. Obama is sticking the neck out of the taxpayers and taking us beyond the point of no return. What happens if you and he are wrong?

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    If our country would spend half the amount of time tweaking the problems which exist and will continue to show themselves in Obamacare as we do arguing the political extremes of it, it would be of great benefit to everyone.

    It amazes me how otherwise rational people can act so stupidly when it goes against their party politics. There is absolutely no question our health insurance system is broken. People like me, who pay health insurance, have been subsidizing those without it who make the emergency room visits for decades now. My cousin is an ER doctor and he once said roughly 50% of emergency room visits go unpaid. The question I always have is do citizens really think the hospital just simply chooses to eat those losses? Of course not, they pass on the costs, where they eventually trickle back down to me and my insurance plan (or otherwise my thousand dollar jello dessert).

    We need a change in the way our healthcare/insurance system was working. I have no doubt there will be problems, both foreseen and unforeseen. Instead of bitching in politically partisan tones (which is only done because it raises bribes/campaign donations), it'd be nice if people were to sit down and actually figure out where the problems are and work to fix them. But that's not nearly as profitable, so we have what we have.
    How do you sit down with a Community agitator and Harry Reid who refuse to negotiate? What healthcare idea was taken from the Republicans? Here is a proposal that you haven't seen. Analyze it and tell me that there aren't good ideas in there.

    The American Health Care Reform Act | Republican Study Committee (RSC)

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