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Thread: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Good questions. So allow me to address them one by one...

    1. "Backpedaling aside, what would happen to eliminating pre-existing conditions without the mandate?" - Well, if you eliminated the pre existing condition mandate, along with the mandate to buy insurance, then we'd be at the starting gate again....However, I think I know what you were saying in that you think that a delay would be delaying the provision that insurance companies must cover pre existing conditions that have already been in place for some time now, and I think everyone likes. The problem you have is that Obama promised that insurance rates would save the average family $2500., but in turn have actually encountered a $10K swing according to the CBO, to wind up costing the average family $7500 more.

    2. "Doesn't Romneycare in Mass. have a similar mandate?" - Possibly, but MassCare is running into some of the predictable problems that we are talking about such as longer wait times to see docs, shortage of docs, not to mention some of the highest premiums in the country (to the best of my knowledge)....

    3. "Where was the Republican opposition to Romneycare?" - Well there was plenty of that, but the bottom line is that Romney was the Governor of a state, and outside opposition makes no difference in that this is where things like this are supposed to be done. That is how the country was set up...Also, it leaves an "out option" for the citizens of that state. For instance, I lived in Maryland for 20 years, raised my kids there, and loved the area we lived. But Maryland was getting so onerous under the Governorship of democrats like Martin O'Malley that it no longer made sense to continue to live there, so we moved to a state with lower taxation, lower pricing, and a better fit for us. IOW, we were able to "escape" the "perceived tyranny" if we wanted to, where do I go to escape the "tyranny" of a Federal system? You can't. And that is the definition of "tyranny".
    You missed the most important thing. NO mandate = no elimination of pre-existing conditions. End of story. It will be back to the panels of experts looking to see if you missed dotting an "i'"so they can deny coverage.
    I don't think your "perceived tyranny" has any merit. It is not tyranny to pay for something you already have, emergency treatment at any hospital without regard for ability to pay.
    Actually, if you bothered to look, the Mass. HC system insures 98.5% of it's citizens and has 60% approval ratings. That's why it was the model for Obamacare.
    Last edited by iguanaman; 10-28-13 at 03:11 PM.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Michael, it may shock you to learn that I think you made a couple of good points in here. I agree that the division of the country has everyone knowing that we are in trouble as a country, and that we all need to "moderate" our approach. But it really is interesting how you can make such a cogent point with that, then proceed to use the rhetoric of division to bash opposition in the same posting....Truly an art. Not a good one though.
    Thank you for your compliments! But your comment on me promoting division are also true if in fact you are suggesting that my labelling of the tea party as the teabaggers is the problem. And of course what goes hand in hand with that is Obama in the WH.

    I can't moderate that in any way, it's truly what I consider to be the biggest problem with your lack of progress and financial recovery.

    I am firmly of the opinion that real conservatism works when it is balanced with liberalism. How could I not when it's obvious that my own country works by practicing that approach. Indeed, if you are a conservative then I only have to wonder why you don't recognize the problem is the extremism of the teabaggers in place of responsible conservatism. And in truth, if you take away their racism and hating then they revert back to being a collection of libertarians. An ideology I won't even get into criticizing with you at this time.

    For what it's worth, and to serve my other purpose, the teabagger label is in no way a sexual connotation as is being suggested by the majority of the moderators. It is purely due to some of their habits of wearing teabags on their hats and clothing. I won't even attempt to suggest that it's not a derogatory term because it is! It's used with the same intent that is used when others use derogatory terms to describe liberals and conservatives.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Michael66;1062476973]I don't ignore wait times but even if I did I would still know that the Canadian system is regarded as more highly rated than your system. The WHO's facts don't lie. Some very wealthy Canadians who have hundreds of thousands or millions to spend do go the the US for immediate treatments that only large amounts of money can buy. But in a close analysis, indications are that for the ordinary millions of people, the wait times aren't significantly different in our two countries.
    Doesn't it bother you that rich Canadians are coming to this country for medical treatment with such a great medical system? Isn't that an indictment of one of the basic problems of UHC? Not sure where you get your information on wait times here but they are no where near what they are in Canada. By the way I love Canada but you can have your healthcare system.


    I know enough to say that if an issue isn't mentioned in your constitution it doesn't automatically become a state issue. And I know enough to say that the ACA has been found to be within your constitution by the SCOTUS. You've deliberately lied to me based on that fact.
    Apparently not because that is exactly what our Constitution says, if it isn't state in the Constitution it up to the Amendment process or is delegated to the states, i.e. marriage, healthcare

    Agreed that results matter. I'm really saying that the teabagger mentality and it's actions have proven to be counter-productive to achieveing results. My comments therefore mean as much as anyone else's on this forum. I think that if you are interested at all in reducing the 17 trillion then you would be concentrating on cooperation rather than haranguing on more obstructionism. I think most of the problem is that Bush2 was such a dismal failure that set your country on a course to destruction and the obstructionism by the GOP/baggers has prevented any kind of recovery.
    Continued use of the word "teabagger" cheapens your argument and destroys what little credibility you have. Why do you think we have a 17 trillion dollar debt and how would cooperation reduce it. Liberals want to spend on social programs and Conservatives want a smaller govt. Compromise between two such diverse ideologies is almost impossible. You don't reduce debt by spending more without growing the economy and govt. spending doesn't grow the economy because it is offset by the spending which is debt. The economic results here today show that liberalism is a failure as is the unified budget that created much of the problems we have today.

    Agreed. Your government is fraudulent, wasteful, abusive, and also dysfunctional due to politicians being bribed by lobbyists. That was happening long before Obama. And there is no will to stop it either. It's a system in which a teabagger mentality can exist but couldn't exist without it. Take away the lobbying and the baggers couldn't survive. Likewise, take away Obama!
    Yes, much of it did however 6.4 trillion of the debt didn't. What has Obama done to eliminate lobbyists who by the way don't vote.

    I would suggest that not having a parent is just as frequent in the US as it is in Canada. Hardly a reason for what you term as a nanny state and I term as a socially responsible style of capitalism. What works and what doesn't work can be the only real consieeration. Canada's works. It appears that everyone of every different pol persuasion in the US agrees that yours is not working.
    Canada is a great country but to compare the two isn't fair. It is the Federal Government's role to PROMOTE not Provide for welfare and they do that through economic policies not massive govt. programs that just create dependence.

    I know very well the stated reasons for the bagger party but I also know that the racist element is more prevalent and visible than the stated reason of paying less taxes. I also know that paying less taxes is a recipe for disaster. I'm not sure of exactly who you even think is paying too much tax? It's obvious the very wealthy aren't paying enough. FActs on income inequality in your country don't lie.
    Keep using the derogatory term bagger and this is my last post to you. Income inequality in this country is self generated. This country doesn't have a zero sum game where someone wins and someone else loses. WE have a growing pie that encourages individual wealth creation or at least we had. Paying less taxes takes money away from the beast. You really have no idea how our states work as there is way too much duplication at the federal level.

    While I consider that we don't have too much government and too much dependence on government. Excuses for 'why' it works aside, it appears that you are suggesting that your government is the 'nanny' state government and our isn't! A refreshing twist out of an American's mouth!
    Our economy wasn't built on the creation of a nanny state but that is what liberalism has done.
    Last edited by Conservative; 10-28-13 at 03:38 PM.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Sorry to break this up a bit, but it is necessary...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    You missed the most important thing. NO mandate = no elimination of pre-existing conditions. End of story. It will be back to the panels of experts looking to see if you missed dotting an "i'"so they can deny coverage.
    I didn't miss that point, but I think you are looking at it as an "either/or" when there are other possibilities. So it really isn't 'the end of the story'.... As for panels, there will always be some body that makes a decision on what is a cost=benefit, and I am one to say why not a solution that takes out of the hands of the insurer, or the government and puts it in the hands of providers, and patients? How would that be a bad thing?

    I don't think your "perceived tyranny" has any merit. It is not tyranny to pay for something you already have, emergency treatment at any hospital without regard for ability to pay.
    Possibly, but in a free market economy, it is not the governments position, nor should it be to dictate what you must do, or buy. That is not a capitalist system anymore.

    Actually, if you bothered to look, the Mass. HC system insures 98.5% of it's citizens and has 60% approval ratings. That's why it was the model for Obamacare.
    If that is the case, and RomneyCare was the 'model' as you say, then why didn't they incorporate those things that would have staved off some of the arguments against Obamacare, like say the religious exemptions? or the ability of Mass. Residents to apply for a waiver from the program if they say they don't make enough to afford the coverage...

    "People who make too much money to be eligible for subsidized coverage but say they still can’t afford insurance can apply for a waiver, which is also available for those who don’t want coverage because of religious beliefs."

    How Massachusetts is faring under its landmark health-care reform law - CSMonitor.com

    Much of the success of MassCare is that they are allowed to shift much of the costs of the program off onto Medicaid. Therefore they didn't have to increase taxes to get it done. Which another argument of why the states should have had the ability to try their own ideas instead of a one size fits all dictate.
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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    You missed the most important thing. NO mandate = no elimination of pre-existing conditions. End of story. It will be back to the panels of experts looking to see if you missed dotting an "i'"so they can deny coverage.
    Its entirely possible that the elimination of pre-existing conditions, elimination of no-drop-of-coverage, and the like are too expensive. If its so expensive, like some of the examples CBS news has been reporting, that people just can't afford insurance anymore, we could see another round of bailouts to prevent a catastrophic systematic failure of the health insurance market.

    The only way out of the death spiral, would be to allow insurers to re-create policies/markets that are exempt from the law's coverage mandates. Don't bother suggesting single-payer as a way out, because of two reasons: 1) It would take way too long to implement(see existing implementation issues). 2) Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me( see existing implementation issues).

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    .
    The fact you think his misrepresentation of my position is representative of me lying is incredibly amusing.

    I'm still waiting for you to provide one example of something I've said to you which is untrue. Your inability to provide even one example is quite telling.

    People are being dropped from previous insurance plans for many reasons. The only people who are truly affected are those who had what amounted to catastrophic insurance coverage. Most other people who are being dropped are being dropped for various reasons.
    Take this one little quote... People are being dropped that had too much insurance ONLY, except other people are being dropped for a variety of other reasons.

    Spun so hard it's dizzying to think you seem to actually believe the stuff you are trying to sell.

    I bet you don't even see that this paragraph is a logical fallacy in and of itself.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    It doesn't bother me in the least that some very wealthy Canadians are going to the US for immediate treatments. It's available in the US so if somebody wants to pay and has the ability to pay then they are free to go to the US. We only have to keep in mind that it's available for the few who can pay for it. And so, if the conversation is about them then I freely admit that your point is valid.

    But it's not about them, it's about the fact that all citizens have a right to 'good' quality health care in a timely manner. Canada fills the bill. Our life expectancy is higher than in the US. Our infant mortality rate is better than in the US. Our medical treatment outcome rate is better than in the US. And our wait times have become similar.

    And we both know that the Canadian system is working and yours isn't. That's not something that can be argued.

    What else is important to anyone? We even have the luxury of going to another country if we want immediate health care. I wonder if France could provide better than Canada if a person had the money to pay for it? It is considered to be the best in the world! I wonder if Americans too choose to go to France for the best?

    My utter disdain for the teabaggers and their ugly racism and hating is not going to change until they demonstrate they have a will to change. That means disassociating themselves from the racist element. It's quite undeniable that they are guilty of that!

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    It doesn't bother me in the least that some very wealthy Canadians are going to the US for immediate treatments. It's available in the US so if somebody wants to pay and has the ability to pay then they are free to go to the US. We only have to keep in mind that it's available for the few who can pay for it. And so, if the conversation is about them then I freely admit that your point is valid.

    But it's not about them, it's about the fact that all citizens have a right to 'good' quality health care in a timely manner. Canada fills the bill. Our life expectancy is higher than in the US. Our infant mortality rate is better than in the US. Our medical treatment outcome rate is better than in the US. And our wait times have become similar.

    And we both know that the Canadian system is working and yours isn't. That's not something that can be argued.

    What else is important to anyone? We even have the luxury of going to another country if we want immediate health care. I wonder if France could provide better than Canada if a person had the money to pay for it? It is considered to be the best in the world! I wonder if Americans too choose to go to France for the best?

    My utter disdain for the teabaggers and their ugly racism and hating is not going to change until they demonstrate they have a will to change. That means disassociating themselves from the racist element. It's quite undeniable that they are guilty of that!
    Do you haven any idea what affects life expectancy? Figure it out and get back to me. The best medical system in the world doesn't expand life expectancy if you destroy it by personal habits. The choices in this country are the costs of freedom. People choose to do drugs, people choose to buy from fast food restaurants, people choose to drink too much, people choose not to exercise, and it goes on. Do you expect the govt. to regulate those activities as well?

    You tell me that the Canadian system is working but you have no proof.

    Your disdain for the Tea Party is built on ignorance, yours

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    Thank you for your compliments! But your comment on me promoting division are also true if in fact you are suggesting that my labelling of the tea party as the teabaggers is the problem. And of course what goes hand in hand with that is Obama in the WH.

    I can't moderate that in any way, it's truly what I consider to be the biggest problem with your lack of progress and financial recovery.

    I am firmly of the opinion that real conservatism works when it is balanced with liberalism. How could I not when it's obvious that my own country works by practicing that approach. Indeed, if you are a conservative then I only have to wonder why you don't recognize the problem is the extremism of the teabaggers in place of responsible conservatism. And in truth, if you take away their racism and hating then they revert back to being a collection of libertarians. An ideology I won't even get into criticizing with you at this time.

    For what it's worth, and to serve my other purpose, the teabagger label is in no way a sexual connotation as is being suggested by the majority of the moderators. It is purely due to some of their habits of wearing teabags on their hats and clothing. I won't even attempt to suggest that it's not a derogatory term because it is! It's used with the same intent that is used when others use derogatory terms to describe liberals and conservatives.
    Ok, that's a fair response Michael, and I would only say that 1. I don't know what country you are hailing from, so I can't make any assessment of that.

    One problem, that people that only see extremes in party affiliations is with labeling in the MSM drives the derision. So when Rachel Maddow, and the others on MSNBC started the whole "teabagger" thing with their snickers, and their childish undertones of the sexual connotations was downright over the top, and those who use it regularly IMHO can not be taken seriously, and you seem like a much smarter guy when it isn't about scoring some cheap shots.

    Libertarians have some valid points, but as with any ideology all can produce extremes. A word which I hate using today because of its very notion in the news today, conjures up visions of radical terrorists. But, in any case, a balance is the way we have done things in this country since its founding, and only until recent history, say 80 years has the shift been toward less obvious changes that promote certain traps, and tools of politic like marginalizing, and less than honest consideration. But I think if we can drop the inflammatory language, and move from there, we get much better back and forth....We just proved that Michael. Thanks.
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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Take this one little quote... People are being dropped that had too much insurance ONLY, except other people are being dropped for a variety of other reasons.
    Nonsense. If people are being dropped because they had insurance which exceeded the minimum required by Obamacare, that is not the fault of Obamacare. That was the point. Only the people who had insurance which did not meet the minimum standards under Obamacare would be effected, and that will usually apply to those who had what's commonly known as catastrophic insurance.

    Leave it to you to try and claim I said something wrong which was not wrong. Oh, and I didn't post that in response to you, I posted it in response to the user Grant.

    So not only did you claim I said something wrong which wasn't, you also couldn't provide a single example of where I posted something to you which was untrue. At this point, my point is proven.

    I bet you don't even see that this paragraph is a logical fallacy in and of itself.
    I suspect you don't even understand what a fallacy is.
    Last edited by Slyfox696; 10-28-13 at 04:14 PM.

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