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Thread: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

  1. #261
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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    What you are doing has nothing to do with logic and facts... What you are doing is about corruption and control.

    To call you a lefty is an insult to democrats.... You are talking more like an authoritarian communist in the vein of Stalin or Mao.


    I'd tell you what you sound like, but it's not worth it.

    Was going to have a different response until I read this whole post...

    It doesn't matter if the 600 mil was false
    Of course it does, it was the reason this part of the discussion even exists.

    Well, in typical fashion of your type, you are an apologist for corruption and find failure in a job to be acceptable... Perhaps even desirable so long as you can politically use that failure.
    Because I have admitted I don't know where the blame lies, that makes me an apologist for corruption and failure? That doesn't even begin to make sense.

    I do not take pride in people losing thei jobs or their livelihoods
    And yet, you're wanting heads to roll, despite having very little clue on who was actually to blame.

    However I am also deeply against rewarding ineptitude as you clearly are willing to do
    Where have I ever advocated rewarding ineptitude? Again, that doesn't make sense.

    and frankly if a person is incapable of performing the job they are paid to do then they should find something more appropriate for them to do...
    Name the person responsible then. I suppose you could say Sebelius, but she didn't build the website. I suppose you could say Obama, but that'd be beyond stupid to say for reasons I doubt you care about.

    So name the person, explain why they deserve to be fired and we'll go from there.

    Again, to have paid those people for incompetence is a disservice to all competent coders and website developers that take pride in their work and provide a legitimate service and fulfil their contracts on time, on budget, and functioning as expected.
    And, again, you're twisting the conversation to avoid the fact I'm right that the website didn't cost $640 million, which was the comment I responded to which started this discussion.

    No, you are not being cute
    No, the "cute" was referring to the irony of you deliberately twisting the discussion to avoid acknowledging I was right and then in the very next section of your post, accuse me of spinning.

    you are acting as a despicable liar
    Name one thing I've lied about. Go ahead, name one thing I lied about in either of my last two posts. I'll wait.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Nope. I'm simply speaking in logic and facts and for that you are calling me a liberal/lefty when I most certainly am not. I can only assume then you believe logic and facts to belong exclusively to liberals/leftys.
    What does that have to do, in any way, with the discussion we were having? I pointed out how the $640 million number is completely false. That was it.
    Well, that doesn't even make sense. Congratulations, you are a liberal.
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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    the individual mandate never even made it past the negotiation stage back then. So it wasn't like there was wide political support for it among conservatives even then. But you are correct, there has been a clear shift in republican politics since then, which is why it's always bizarre when people cite past policy positions, even though they are based on being totally misinformed about what popular positions were actually at that point in time
    All Republican proposals including the one from the Heritage Foundation had an individual mandate, citing "personal responsibility" as the reason. Dems are the ones that opposed because it would hurt the poor. What happened to personal responsibility? Is it no longer a Right wing issue? Or is it how it seems....
    Last edited by iguanaman; 10-28-13 at 01:51 AM.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    All Republican proposals including the one from the Heritage Foundation had an individual mandate, citing "personal responsibility" as the reason. Dems are the ones that opposed because it would hurt the poor. What happened to personal responsibility? Is it no longer a Right wing issue? Or is it how it seems....
    Why is it that many of you confuse legal responsibility that is forced on the people by law with personal responsibility?

    Personal responsibility is not something you mandate on the people. It is taking responsibility for your actions, accepting the consequences that come from them, and recognizing that your actions affect others. Put in another way, it is a moral obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one's actions. You will note that I said moral obligation, not legal obligation. That is important and should not be overlooked.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    All Republican proposals including the one from the Heritage Foundation had an individual mandate, citing "personal responsibility" as the reason. Dems are the ones that opposed because it would hurt the poor. What happened to personal responsibility? Is it no longer a Right wing issue? Or is it how it seems....

    Only if you would bother doing some research once in awhile:
    In 1993, Sen. John Chafee, R-R.I., introduced the Health Equity and Access Reform Today (HEART) Act of 1993, which included a requirement that individuals purchase health insurance. That provision was to take effect on Jan. 1, 2005 -- more than a decade after the bill would have been enacted.

    The bill never made it even to the hearing stage. But Chafee continued to push for an alternative to the Clinton option.

    In mid 1994, he and a fellow member of the Senate Finance Committee -- conservative Democrat John Breaux of Louisiana -- worked on a new version that also would have required all Americans to buy insurance....

    ...We did not find the Chafee-Breaux bill in the THOMAS database of congressional legislation, so it apparently did not receive a formal vote.
    The HEART Act attracted 19 Republicans as sponsors or co-sponsors, including Chafee, Bond and Dole, who was then the Senate minority leader, plus a number of ranking Republicans on Senate committees -- Mark Hatfield of Oregon (appropriations), Pete Domenici of New Mexico (budget), John Danforth of Missouri (commerce), Orrin Hatch of Utah (judiciary) and Nancy Landon Kassebaum of Kansas (labor and human resources).

    Nineteen Republicans is not a trivial number, and the fact that many members of the Senate Republican leadership signed on is noteworthy. Still, 19 represented less than half of the GOP conference at the time, and the list of co-sponsors includes many of the party’s moderates. The idea was less popular among conservatives in the party. For instance, Nickles, one of the four pictured in the Facebook post, was not a co-sponsor.

    The Times, in a June 23, 1994, story on the later Chafee effort, called it the "moderates’" proposal.The newspaper reported that Sen. Phil Gramm, R-Texas, one of the GOP’s leading conservatives, said that any plan that "got his support and that of most Republicans" would not "guarantee anything." And not having a guarantee of coverage would have meant not having an individual mandate.

    This jibes with the recollections of Gail Wilensky, a health care economist at Project HOPE, an international health foundation. Wilensky directed Medicare and Medicaid from 1990 to 1992 and served as a senior health adviser to President George H.W. Bush.

    "I do not remember Republicans, especially conservative Republicans, embracing individual mandates," Wilensky said.

    PolitiFact | Facebook post says Republicans embraced individual mandate in 1993

    The bill was always the product of the center right, fiscally conservative elements of the party like Dole and Romney. That doesn't mean it was popular across the party and it certainly wasn't popular with the far right individuals who make up the influential base of the modern GOP. So maybe do some research for once and inform yourself, as opposed to regurgitating everything you read on some **** outlet like the daily kos and facebook memes

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Only if you would bother doing some research once in awhile:




    PolitiFact | Facebook post says Republicans embraced individual mandate in 1993

    The bill was always the product of the center right, fiscally conservative elements of the party like Dole and Romney. That doesn't mean it was popular across the party and it certainly wasn't popular with the far right individuals who make up the influential base of the modern GOP. So maybe do some research for once and inform yourself, as opposed to regurgitating everything you read on some **** outlet like the daily kos and facebook memes
    Why did you avoid my question? Is personal responsibility still important to the right or not? And remember when it comes to treating the sick or injured, there is no avoiding it. Reagan signed that bill.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post


    I'd tell you what you sound like, but it's not worth it.

    Of course it does, it was the reason this part of the discussion even exists.

    Because I have admitted I don't know where the blame lies, that makes me an apologist for corruption and failure? That doesn't even begin to make sense.

    And yet, you're wanting heads to roll, despite having very little clue on who was actually to blame.

    Where have I ever advocated rewarding ineptitude? Again, that doesn't make sense.

    Name the person responsible then. I suppose you could say Sebelius, but she didn't build the website. I suppose you could say Obama, but that'd be beyond stupid to say for reasons I doubt you care about.

    So name the person, explain why they deserve to be fired and we'll go from there.


    And, again, you're twisting the conversation to avoid the fact I'm right that the website didn't cost $640 million, which was the comment I responded to which started this discussion.

    No, the "cute" was referring to the irony of you deliberately twisting the discussion to avoid acknowledging I was right and then in the very next section of your post, accuse me of spinning.

    Name one thing I've lied about. Go ahead, name one thing I lied about in either of my last two posts. I'll wait.
    Ever heard of investigations?? Well, we should have one to see who is responsible and to what extent..

    So what that the600 mill was wrong, though you have yet to correct that number???

    How much are you willing to pay for a broken... Anything?? What happens if you did buy something new that was broken? You get your money back... Well, this is no different, but if you are worried about the perpetrators livelihoods and families... Well, if they weren't somewhere between incompetent and criminal (stupid or lying, whatever), or if they weren't being funded by tax payers than I wouldn't even care...

    The only thing I have to take back is calling you a liar, because I would have to prove that you knew your statements were false, its more likely that you just bought into the lies of others. Here's to hoping you begin to see a few extra inches past the tip of your nose.
    Last edited by BmanMcfly; 10-28-13 at 03:00 AM.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Why is it that many of you confuse legal responsibility that is forced on the people by law with personal responsibility?

    Personal responsibility is not something you mandate on the people. It is taking responsibility for your actions, accepting the consequences that come from them, and recognizing that your actions affect others. Put in another way, it is a moral obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one's actions. You will note that I said moral obligation, not legal obligation. That is important and should not be overlooked.
    So you are fine with paying for all that decide that they don't need insurance? That's what you are saying whether you know it or not. That's very magnanimous of you. You have made yourself morally and legally obligated to pay the bills of all who are uninsured by choice. That's the law as it stood before the AHC act..
    Last edited by iguanaman; 10-28-13 at 03:00 AM.

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    The bill was always the product of the center right, fiscally conservative elements of the party like Dole and Romney. That doesn't mean it was popular across the party and it certainly wasn't popular with the far right individuals who make up the influential base of the modern GOP. So maybe do some research for once and inform yourself, as opposed to regurgitating everything you read on some **** outlet like the daily kos and facebook memes
    I'm tired of my health insurance reflecting the cost of rightist--winger scofflaws not having health insurance..
    Physics is Phun

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    Re: 'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Why did you avoid my question? Is personal responsibility still important to the right or not?
    I directly answered your question: I pointed out this was a program never supported by what are the current dominant elements of the GOP. Why ignore that?


    And remember when it comes to treating the sick or injured, there is no avoiding it. Reagan signed that bill.
    1) We've been through this before: I'm likely more progressive on healthcare reform than you

    2) It's not the uninsured that are heavy users of the ER and ER use is an overstated cost in the health care equation. The people most prone to use the ER are those with chronic illnesses, with insurance, but who are not receiving adequate care, and those on medicare and medicaid, due to issues with the reimbursement scheme

    So again, do some research as opposed to constantly moaning out of ignorance and blind partisanship

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