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'Delay’ suddenly not a dirty word at White House

I dunno, Bubba. This ACA Frankenstein probably isn't going to make it no matter what they do unless they delay it, and if they delay it they have a whole new set of problems to **** up. Maybe a solar powered set of defib paddles will help. We're rapidly approaching that time Obama described as the point at which perhaps just a pill will help and make ever so much more sense than to throw good money into a dying effort.

I bet the only thing that gets delayed is the "benefit" portion, all the taxes and fees will probably carry on without problem...

Afterall, the only thing the government does efficiently is collect money.
 
[/B]And the $640 million number was what was reported for the one contractor. The only spin here is you trying to spin the number as presented for all contractors, not just the one, which it was originally reported to be.


https://web.archive.org/web/2013100...pinion/obamacare-healthcare-gov-website-cost/

I find it amusing you keep projecting your own actions of spin onto me, when all I'm doing is simply speaking the truth. I really wish you'd drop the politics in your posting and just start speaking facts.

I have never spoken to Reid, so I'm not sure why you think I would talk to him.

LOL.
Spin, twist, wiggle....you're still at it.
Here's what you typed out: "I'll even post information from a source which has absolutely no reason to try and lower the number:" then you hotlinked a 93.7 million number for CGI. Just one contractor and no government costs included in your post.

"when all I'm doing is simply speaking the truth." LOL. Misrepresenting numbers from one company has little to do with the truth. You used it as spin.
 
LOL.
Spin, twist, wiggle....you're still at it.
Here's what you typed out: "I'll even post information from a source which has absolutely no reason to try and lower the number:" then you hotlinked a 93.7 million number for CGI. Just one contractor and no government costs included in your post.

"when all I'm doing is simply speaking the truth." LOL. Misrepresenting numbers from one company has little to do with the truth. You used it as spin.

Thanks, he asks for one example of lies, and the problem I have is isolating just one...
 
But a non-extremist would realize Obamacare does not put the government in charge of your healthcare, but rather provide standards insurers must adhere to in order to provide a basic coverage.



A non-extremist knows that if Obamadon'tcare had no intention of being in charge of a person's healthcare, the government would not have placed mandated coverage on the customer's. They could have set up their "standards" for people that could choose to buy their type insurance from their exchange or left it up to the customer to shop elsewhere.

A non-extremist also knows that debt owed to ourselves is another disaster just waiting for it's time. That huge debt is a perfect representation of governments incompetence and wasteful spending on present and future disasters such as Obamadon'tcare.
 
Outstanding Post, too bad, Obama supporters like iguanaman will ignore the content. Far too many don't understand the role of the Federal and State governments as they want to equate what Romney did to a Federal Program ignoring the magnitude and scope of a federal program vs. that of a state program plus the demands of the Federal govt. for more power especially create more dependence to control people's votes and maintain power

Agreed, but I am holding out hope that true discourse will win the day...I am trying to tone back, my rhetoric, and my methods of approaching the argument. Hopefully, by example, I can bring forth a better, more convincing argument. But, thanks for your acknowledgment.
 
The only thing that appears to be consistent with Americans on this forum is that both sides understand very well that their country is failing and in big trouble. Until some degree of moderated approach to the problems is dealt with it's pretty obvious that the ingrained hate toward others and their politics will prevent any remedy.

I would suggest that's much more likely to happen after Obama's term is over. The teabagger ideology will be sidelined for something that is much more workable and that will be because the reason for the racist hating is no longer sitting in the WH.

It's really now only a matter of how much Americans want to destroy their country and it's economy in the next three years while Obama is in office.
 
Michael66;1062476707]First of all, I don't understand your argument that seems to be saying that the US has a disadvantage due to ten times the population of Canada. I would suggest that a larger population could be considered an advantage as it appears to be with trade between countries. And we also know that larger countries than the US population wise have very good universal health care systems for all their people. So I think your idea of a larger population is simply invalid.

You seem to also ignore the degrees to which regulations, legal suits, and Federal involvement add to the costs of healthcare. It is you that doesn't seem to understand 50 sovereign states and 312 million people vs. Canadian population and govt. You further seem to ignore wait times and the fact that Canadian people are coming to this country for healthcare. You believe in the concept and ignore the reality. What you BELIEVE with regard to other countries healthcare is irrelevant and based upon what you have been led to believe.

Likewise with your comments on having 50 sovereign states. I see no reason why that's not invalid too.

Because our Founders in their wisdom created a Constitution and believed in a small central govt. If an issue doesn't appear in the Constitution it becomes a state issue, i.e. marriage, healthcare. You don't seem to grasp the concept and know very little about U.S. history.

I certainly don't ignore waste and fraud, I comment on it frequently on this forum as regards to your health care system. Canada is doing it better in health care for roughly half as much money as your country is currently doing it, per capita. Again, your objections to my post appear to be invalid.

Your opinion noted. Your comments mean nothing like everyone else's as results matter not comments. Results show we have a 17 trillion dollar debt and cannot afford what is a state and local issue stemming from personal responsibilities.

If your Medicare and SS are being abused then it's likely due to problems in your system of administering those programs. What isn't in doubt is that they are both very necessary in a first world society. We don't consider our SS or equivalent of your Medicare to be abused in such an egregious manner as you appear to be saying yours is. That could be due to either your exaggerating or once again due to poor management of your social programs.

Yes, showing that a federal bureaucracy administered by Federal bureaucrats for 312 million people is ripe with waste, fraud, and abuse. A little research will show exactly the extent of the waste, fraud, and abuse in our social programs.

I consider the obvious dysfunction in your government largely due to your GOP party's obstructionist policy since Obama took office. That is especially noticeable with the outrageous waste which was brought on by Cruz and the teabaggers just recently. And I never do see any constructive criticism of Obama which could lead to him compromising in his approach to governing. I just see negativism and racist generated hate toward him.

Your opinion noted and may be coming from a belief in the nanny state and the govt. being that parent that many have never had. You call dissent waste and I call it the rights of the people. I don't believe it is the Federal Government's role to take on personal responsibility issues. Also the next time you decide to defame the name of the T.E.A. Party I suggest you do some research and find out what it really means to be a member

In truth, I would see the US adopting a form of socially responsible capitalism that would be similar to all other successful first world countries. That alone could elevate your country out of the current crisis it is suffering. And that kind of change is undoubtedly the kind of change Obama is attempting to bring about. You only need to come to an understanding that socially responsible government is not socialism. Canada is living proof of that with our brand of capitalism that works.

Canada has made some great changes and moved towards a conservative government but Canada is being defended by the United States and thus doesn't have the defense budget we have so comparing the U.S. to Canada is like comparing apples to oranges. The current crisis we face is due to too much govt. and too much dependence on that govt. Our Founders are turning over in their graves. Too many Americans and people like you have no concept of American History

There are no other answers for your problems and there are no easy answers. I would suggest that you 'will' change in due course and it will either be willingly under a conservative government and president or a more liberal one. And if it's not willingly then it will be kicking and screaming. There's just no other recipe for survival in this 21st. century. There no longer is enough to go around while supporting the old American way anymore.

I did change in due course growing up a Democrat and liberal. that changed over time when I realized that the Democratic Party was all talk and little action other than to build a power base. The recipe you are promoting I reject because it is one of big govt., massive dependence, and equal outcome vs. equal opportunity.
 
LOL.
Spin, twist, wiggle....you're still at it.
Here's what you typed out: "I'll even post information from a source which has absolutely no reason to try and lower the number:" then you hotlinked a 93.7 million number for CGI. Just one contractor and no government costs included in your post.
What part of this is difficult for you to understand?

The $640 million was originally reported as the price for one contractor, which I disproved. I used that source to show the $640 million (which is actually $634 million, but whatever) was the TOTAL contract for all services provided and to be provided.

Why are you struggling so mightily with simple facts? There is no spin, it's a simple fact.

"when all I'm doing is simply speaking the truth." LOL. Misrepresenting numbers from one company has little to do with the truth. You used it as spin.
I did not misrepresent or spin anything, as I've now proven multiple times. Either you're incapable of understanding the basic English langauge or you're getting your jollies from accusing me of spin. Either way, it reflects poorly on you.
A non-extremist knows that if Obamadon'tcare had no intention of being in charge of a person's healthcare, the government would not have placed mandated coverage on the customer's.
Given the difficulty you seem to be having with simple numbers and simple facts, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you seem to have confused the difference between healthcare and insurance. Oh, and as I said, nobody is forcing you to have insurance. You are welcome to simply pay the tax.
Thanks, he asks for one example of lies, and the problem I have is isolating just one...
The fact you think his misrepresentation of my position is representative of me lying is incredibly amusing.

I'm still waiting for you to provide one example of something I've said to you which is untrue. Your inability to provide even one example is quite telling.
 
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The only thing that appears to be consistent with Americans on this forum is that both sides understand very well that their country is failing and in big trouble. Until some degree of moderated approach to the problems is dealt with it's pretty obvious that the ingrained hate toward others and their politics will prevent any remedy.

I would suggest that's much more likely to happen after Obama's term is over. The teabagger ideology will be sidelined for something that is much more workable and that will be because the reason for the racist hating is no longer sitting in the WH.

It's really now only a matter of how much Americans want to destroy their country and it's economy in the next three years while Obama is in office.

Michael, it may shock you to learn that I think you made a couple of good points in here. I agree that the division of the country has everyone knowing that we are in trouble as a country, and that we all need to "moderate" our approach. But it really is interesting how you can make such a cogent point with that, then proceed to use the rhetoric of division to bash opposition in the same posting....Truly an art. Not a good one though.
 
You seem to also ignore the degrees to which regulations, legal suits, and Federal involvement add to the costs of healthcare. It is you that doesn't seem to understand 50 sovereign states and 312 million people vs. Canadian population and govt. You further seem to ignore wait times and the fact that Canadian people are coming to this country for healthcare. You believe in the concept and ignore the reality. What you BELIEVE with regard to other countries healthcare is irrelevant and based upon what you have been led to believe.

I don't ignore wait times but even if I did I would still know that the Canadian system is regarded as more highly rated than your system. The WHO's facts don't lie. Some very wealthy Canadians who have hundreds of thousands or millions to spend do go the the US for immediate treatments that only large amounts of money can buy. But in a close analysis, indications are that for the ordinary millions of people, the wait times aren't significantly different in our two countries.



Because our Founders in their wisdom created a Constitution and believed in a small central govt. If an issue doesn't appear in the Constitution it becomes a state issue, i.e. marriage, healthcare. You don't seem to grasp the concept and know very little about U.S. history.

I know enough to say that if an issue isn't mentioned in your constitution it doesn't automatically become a state issue. And I know enough to say that the ACA has been found to be within your constitution by the SCOTUS. You've deliberately lied to me based on that fact.



Your opinion noted. Your comments mean nothing like everyone else's as results matter not comments. Results show we have a 17 trillion dollar debt and cannot afford what is a state and local issue stemming from personal responsibilities.

Agreed that results matter. I'm really saying that the teabagger mentality and it's actions have proven to be counter-productive to achieveing results. My comments therefore mean as much as anyone else's on this forum. I think that if you are interested at all in reducing the 17 trillion then you would be concentrating on cooperation rather than haranguing on more obstructionism. I think most of the problem is that Bush2 was such a dismal failure that set your country on a course to destruction and the obstructionism by the GOP/baggers has prevented any kind of recovery.



Yes, showing that a federal bureaucracy administered by Federal bureaucrats for 312 million people is ripe with waste, fraud, and abuse. A little research will show exactly the extent of the waste, fraud, and abuse in our social programs.

Agreed. Your government is fraudulent, wasteful, abusive, and also dysfunctional due to politicians being bribed by lobbyists. That was happening long before Obama. And there is no will to stop it either. It's a system in which a teabagger mentality can exist but couldn't exist without it. Take away the lobbying and the baggers couldn't survive. Likewise, take away Obama!



Your opinion noted and may be coming from a belief in the nanny state and the govt. being that parent that many have never had. You call dissent waste and I call it the rights of the people. I don't believe it is the Federal Government's role to take on personal responsibility issues. Also the next time you decide to defame the name of the T.E.A. Party I suggest you do some research and find out what it really means to be a member

I would suggest that not having a parent is just as frequent in the US as it is in Canada. Hardly a reason for what you term as a nanny state and I term as a socially responsible style of capitalism. What works and what doesn't work can be the only real consieeration. Canada's works. It appears that everyone of every different pol persuasion in the US agrees that yours is not working.

I know very well the stated reasons for the bagger party but I also know that the racist element is more prevalent and visible than the stated reason of paying less taxes. I also know that paying less taxes is a recipe for disaster. I'm not sure of exactly who you even think is paying too much tax? It's obvious the very wealthy aren't paying enough. FActs on income inequality in your country don't lie.

The current crisis we face is due to too much govt. and too much dependence on that govt.

While I consider that we don't have too much government and too much dependence on government. Excuses for 'why' it works aside, it appears that you are suggesting that your government is the 'nanny' state government and our isn't! A refreshing twist out of an American's mouth!



Canada has made some great changes and moved towards a conservative government but Canada is being defended by the United States and thus doesn't have the defense budget we have so comparing the U.S. to Canada is like comparing apples to oranges. The current crisis we face is due to too much govt. and too much dependence on that govt. Our Founders are turning over in their graves. Too many Americans and people like you have no concept of American History

I've been preached to by Americans so many times now that I couldn't help but not know what the issues are and what the history appears to dictate for the future. I hear you complaining about your defence budget at the same time as I hear you complaining about too much spending. Don't you think that's rather inconsistent. Regardless, all I'm concerned about as a Canadian is success in government. Our mild swings back and forth between more conservatism and less is working fine. In fact, I consider it essential to good government.



I did change in due course growing up a Democrat and liberal. that changed over time when I realized that the Democratic Party was all talk and little action other than to build a power base. The recipe you are promoting I reject because it is one of big govt., massive dependence, and equal outcome vs. equal opportunity.

By your own admission your government is too big. Maybe you should be looking at other countries with more liberal governments to find something that works. It's your government that has proven to be dysfunctional and that happened before Obama's time.

If the teabagger party would separate itself from the racist hate that is so recognizable then perhaps it could be taken seriously as representing that which it attempts to stand for. Until it does then it stands are representing racist hate more than any other quality or lack of. And of course it can never succeed as long as it is aligned with racism. Rout out the haters and the racists and only then will it be taken seriously by the mainstream perhaps? Only bear in mind that after the racism and hate is banished from your midst then it will again revert to being a 'libertarian' effort and that will again be on the fringe with no more than 15% support.
 
Good questions. So allow me to address them one by one...

1. "Backpedaling aside, what would happen to eliminating pre-existing conditions without the mandate?" - Well, if you eliminated the pre existing condition mandate, along with the mandate to buy insurance, then we'd be at the starting gate again....However, I think I know what you were saying in that you think that a delay would be delaying the provision that insurance companies must cover pre existing conditions that have already been in place for some time now, and I think everyone likes. The problem you have is that Obama promised that insurance rates would save the average family $2500., but in turn have actually encountered a $10K swing according to the CBO, to wind up costing the average family $7500 more.

2. "Doesn't Romneycare in Mass. have a similar mandate?" - Possibly, but MassCare is running into some of the predictable problems that we are talking about such as longer wait times to see docs, shortage of docs, not to mention some of the highest premiums in the country (to the best of my knowledge)....

3. "Where was the Republican opposition to Romneycare?" - Well there was plenty of that, but the bottom line is that Romney was the Governor of a state, and outside opposition makes no difference in that this is where things like this are supposed to be done. That is how the country was set up...Also, it leaves an "out option" for the citizens of that state. For instance, I lived in Maryland for 20 years, raised my kids there, and loved the area we lived. But Maryland was getting so onerous under the Governorship of democrats like Martin O'Malley that it no longer made sense to continue to live there, so we moved to a state with lower taxation, lower pricing, and a better fit for us. IOW, we were able to "escape" the "perceived tyranny" if we wanted to, where do I go to escape the "tyranny" of a Federal system? You can't. And that is the definition of "tyranny".

You missed the most important thing. NO mandate = no elimination of pre-existing conditions. End of story. It will be back to the panels of experts looking to see if you missed dotting an "i'"so they can deny coverage.
I don't think your "perceived tyranny" has any merit. It is not tyranny to pay for something you already have, emergency treatment at any hospital without regard for ability to pay.
Actually, if you bothered to look, the Mass. HC system insures 98.5% of it's citizens and has 60% approval ratings. That's why it was the model for Obamacare.
 
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Michael, it may shock you to learn that I think you made a couple of good points in here. I agree that the division of the country has everyone knowing that we are in trouble as a country, and that we all need to "moderate" our approach. But it really is interesting how you can make such a cogent point with that, then proceed to use the rhetoric of division to bash opposition in the same posting....Truly an art. Not a good one though.

Thank you for your compliments! But your comment on me promoting division are also true if in fact you are suggesting that my labelling of the tea party as the teabaggers is the problem. And of course what goes hand in hand with that is Obama in the WH.

I can't moderate that in any way, it's truly what I consider to be the biggest problem with your lack of progress and financial recovery.

I am firmly of the opinion that real conservatism works when it is balanced with liberalism. How could I not when it's obvious that my own country works by practicing that approach. Indeed, if you are a conservative then I only have to wonder why you don't recognize the problem is the extremism of the teabaggers in place of responsible conservatism. And in truth, if you take away their racism and hating then they revert back to being a collection of libertarians. An ideology I won't even get into criticizing with you at this time.

For what it's worth, and to serve my other purpose, the teabagger label is in no way a sexual connotation as is being suggested by the majority of the moderators. It is purely due to some of their habits of wearing teabags on their hats and clothing. I won't even attempt to suggest that it's not a derogatory term because it is! It's used with the same intent that is used when others use derogatory terms to describe liberals and conservatives.
 
Michael66;1062476973]I don't ignore wait times but even if I did I would still know that the Canadian system is regarded as more highly rated than your system. The WHO's facts don't lie. Some very wealthy Canadians who have hundreds of thousands or millions to spend do go the the US for immediate treatments that only large amounts of money can buy. But in a close analysis, indications are that for the ordinary millions of people, the wait times aren't significantly different in our two countries.

Doesn't it bother you that rich Canadians are coming to this country for medical treatment with such a great medical system? Isn't that an indictment of one of the basic problems of UHC? Not sure where you get your information on wait times here but they are no where near what they are in Canada. By the way I love Canada but you can have your healthcare system.


I know enough to say that if an issue isn't mentioned in your constitution it doesn't automatically become a state issue. And I know enough to say that the ACA has been found to be within your constitution by the SCOTUS. You've deliberately lied to me based on that fact.

Apparently not because that is exactly what our Constitution says, if it isn't state in the Constitution it up to the Amendment process or is delegated to the states, i.e. marriage, healthcare

Agreed that results matter. I'm really saying that the teabagger mentality and it's actions have proven to be counter-productive to achieveing results. My comments therefore mean as much as anyone else's on this forum. I think that if you are interested at all in reducing the 17 trillion then you would be concentrating on cooperation rather than haranguing on more obstructionism. I think most of the problem is that Bush2 was such a dismal failure that set your country on a course to destruction and the obstructionism by the GOP/baggers has prevented any kind of recovery.

Continued use of the word "teabagger" cheapens your argument and destroys what little credibility you have. Why do you think we have a 17 trillion dollar debt and how would cooperation reduce it. Liberals want to spend on social programs and Conservatives want a smaller govt. Compromise between two such diverse ideologies is almost impossible. You don't reduce debt by spending more without growing the economy and govt. spending doesn't grow the economy because it is offset by the spending which is debt. The economic results here today show that liberalism is a failure as is the unified budget that created much of the problems we have today.

Agreed. Your government is fraudulent, wasteful, abusive, and also dysfunctional due to politicians being bribed by lobbyists. That was happening long before Obama. And there is no will to stop it either. It's a system in which a teabagger mentality can exist but couldn't exist without it. Take away the lobbying and the baggers couldn't survive. Likewise, take away Obama!

Yes, much of it did however 6.4 trillion of the debt didn't. What has Obama done to eliminate lobbyists who by the way don't vote.

I would suggest that not having a parent is just as frequent in the US as it is in Canada. Hardly a reason for what you term as a nanny state and I term as a socially responsible style of capitalism. What works and what doesn't work can be the only real consieeration. Canada's works. It appears that everyone of every different pol persuasion in the US agrees that yours is not working.

Canada is a great country but to compare the two isn't fair. It is the Federal Government's role to PROMOTE not Provide for welfare and they do that through economic policies not massive govt. programs that just create dependence.

I know very well the stated reasons for the bagger party but I also know that the racist element is more prevalent and visible than the stated reason of paying less taxes. I also know that paying less taxes is a recipe for disaster. I'm not sure of exactly who you even think is paying too much tax? It's obvious the very wealthy aren't paying enough. FActs on income inequality in your country don't lie.

Keep using the derogatory term bagger and this is my last post to you. Income inequality in this country is self generated. This country doesn't have a zero sum game where someone wins and someone else loses. WE have a growing pie that encourages individual wealth creation or at least we had. Paying less taxes takes money away from the beast. You really have no idea how our states work as there is way too much duplication at the federal level.

While I consider that we don't have too much government and too much dependence on government. Excuses for 'why' it works aside, it appears that you are suggesting that your government is the 'nanny' state government and our isn't! A refreshing twist out of an American's mouth!

Our economy wasn't built on the creation of a nanny state but that is what liberalism has done.
 
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Sorry to break this up a bit, but it is necessary...

You missed the most important thing. NO mandate = no elimination of pre-existing conditions. End of story. It will be back to the panels of experts looking to see if you missed dotting an "i'"so they can deny coverage.

I didn't miss that point, but I think you are looking at it as an "either/or" when there are other possibilities. So it really isn't 'the end of the story'.... As for panels, there will always be some body that makes a decision on what is a cost=benefit, and I am one to say why not a solution that takes out of the hands of the insurer, or the government and puts it in the hands of providers, and patients? How would that be a bad thing?

I don't think your "perceived tyranny" has any merit. It is not tyranny to pay for something you already have, emergency treatment at any hospital without regard for ability to pay.

Possibly, but in a free market economy, it is not the governments position, nor should it be to dictate what you must do, or buy. That is not a capitalist system anymore.

Actually, if you bothered to look, the Mass. HC system insures 98.5% of it's citizens and has 60% approval ratings. That's why it was the model for Obamacare.

If that is the case, and RomneyCare was the 'model' as you say, then why didn't they incorporate those things that would have staved off some of the arguments against Obamacare, like say the religious exemptions? or the ability of Mass. Residents to apply for a waiver from the program if they say they don't make enough to afford the coverage...

"People who make too much money to be eligible for subsidized coverage but say they still can’t afford insurance can apply for a waiver, which is also available for those who don’t want coverage because of religious beliefs."

How Massachusetts is faring under its landmark health-care reform law - CSMonitor.com

Much of the success of MassCare is that they are allowed to shift much of the costs of the program off onto Medicaid. Therefore they didn't have to increase taxes to get it done. Which another argument of why the states should have had the ability to try their own ideas instead of a one size fits all dictate.
 
You missed the most important thing. NO mandate = no elimination of pre-existing conditions. End of story. It will be back to the panels of experts looking to see if you missed dotting an "i'"so they can deny coverage.

Its entirely possible that the elimination of pre-existing conditions, elimination of no-drop-of-coverage, and the like are too expensive. If its so expensive, like some of the examples CBS news has been reporting, that people just can't afford insurance anymore, we could see another round of bailouts to prevent a catastrophic systematic failure of the health insurance market.

The only way out of the death spiral, would be to allow insurers to re-create policies/markets that are exempt from the law's coverage mandates. Don't bother suggesting single-payer as a way out, because of two reasons: 1) It would take way too long to implement(see existing implementation issues). 2) Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me( see existing implementation issues).
 
.
The fact you think his misrepresentation of my position is representative of me lying is incredibly amusing.

I'm still waiting for you to provide one example of something I've said to you which is untrue. Your inability to provide even one example is quite telling.


People are being dropped from previous insurance plans for many reasons. The only people who are truly affected are those who had what amounted to catastrophic insurance coverage. Most other people who are being dropped are being dropped for various reasons.

Take this one little quote... People are being dropped that had too much insurance ONLY, except other people are being dropped for a variety of other reasons.

Spun so hard it's dizzying to think you seem to actually believe the stuff you are trying to sell.

I bet you don't even see that this paragraph is a logical fallacy in and of itself.
 
It doesn't bother me in the least that some very wealthy Canadians are going to the US for immediate treatments. It's available in the US so if somebody wants to pay and has the ability to pay then they are free to go to the US. We only have to keep in mind that it's available for the few who can pay for it. And so, if the conversation is about them then I freely admit that your point is valid.

But it's not about them, it's about the fact that all citizens have a right to 'good' quality health care in a timely manner. Canada fills the bill. Our life expectancy is higher than in the US. Our infant mortality rate is better than in the US. Our medical treatment outcome rate is better than in the US. And our wait times have become similar.

And we both know that the Canadian system is working and yours isn't. That's not something that can be argued.

What else is important to anyone? We even have the luxury of going to another country if we want immediate health care. I wonder if France could provide better than Canada if a person had the money to pay for it? It is considered to be the best in the world! I wonder if Americans too choose to go to France for the best?

My utter disdain for the teabaggers and their ugly racism and hating is not going to change until they demonstrate they have a will to change. That means disassociating themselves from the racist element. It's quite undeniable that they are guilty of that!
 
It doesn't bother me in the least that some very wealthy Canadians are going to the US for immediate treatments. It's available in the US so if somebody wants to pay and has the ability to pay then they are free to go to the US. We only have to keep in mind that it's available for the few who can pay for it. And so, if the conversation is about them then I freely admit that your point is valid.

But it's not about them, it's about the fact that all citizens have a right to 'good' quality health care in a timely manner. Canada fills the bill. Our life expectancy is higher than in the US. Our infant mortality rate is better than in the US. Our medical treatment outcome rate is better than in the US. And our wait times have become similar.

And we both know that the Canadian system is working and yours isn't. That's not something that can be argued.

What else is important to anyone? We even have the luxury of going to another country if we want immediate health care. I wonder if France could provide better than Canada if a person had the money to pay for it? It is considered to be the best in the world! I wonder if Americans too choose to go to France for the best?

My utter disdain for the teabaggers and their ugly racism and hating is not going to change until they demonstrate they have a will to change. That means disassociating themselves from the racist element. It's quite undeniable that they are guilty of that!

Do you haven any idea what affects life expectancy? Figure it out and get back to me. The best medical system in the world doesn't expand life expectancy if you destroy it by personal habits. The choices in this country are the costs of freedom. People choose to do drugs, people choose to buy from fast food restaurants, people choose to drink too much, people choose not to exercise, and it goes on. Do you expect the govt. to regulate those activities as well?

You tell me that the Canadian system is working but you have no proof.

Your disdain for the Tea Party is built on ignorance, yours
 
Thank you for your compliments! But your comment on me promoting division are also true if in fact you are suggesting that my labelling of the tea party as the teabaggers is the problem. And of course what goes hand in hand with that is Obama in the WH.

I can't moderate that in any way, it's truly what I consider to be the biggest problem with your lack of progress and financial recovery.

I am firmly of the opinion that real conservatism works when it is balanced with liberalism. How could I not when it's obvious that my own country works by practicing that approach. Indeed, if you are a conservative then I only have to wonder why you don't recognize the problem is the extremism of the teabaggers in place of responsible conservatism. And in truth, if you take away their racism and hating then they revert back to being a collection of libertarians. An ideology I won't even get into criticizing with you at this time.

For what it's worth, and to serve my other purpose, the teabagger label is in no way a sexual connotation as is being suggested by the majority of the moderators. It is purely due to some of their habits of wearing teabags on their hats and clothing. I won't even attempt to suggest that it's not a derogatory term because it is! It's used with the same intent that is used when others use derogatory terms to describe liberals and conservatives.

Ok, that's a fair response Michael, and I would only say that 1. I don't know what country you are hailing from, so I can't make any assessment of that.

One problem, that people that only see extremes in party affiliations is with labeling in the MSM drives the derision. So when Rachel Maddow, and the others on MSNBC started the whole "teabagger" thing with their snickers, and their childish undertones of the sexual connotations was downright over the top, and those who use it regularly IMHO can not be taken seriously, and you seem like a much smarter guy when it isn't about scoring some cheap shots.

Libertarians have some valid points, but as with any ideology all can produce extremes. A word which I hate using today because of its very notion in the news today, conjures up visions of radical terrorists. But, in any case, a balance is the way we have done things in this country since its founding, and only until recent history, say 80 years has the shift been toward less obvious changes that promote certain traps, and tools of politic like marginalizing, and less than honest consideration. But I think if we can drop the inflammatory language, and move from there, we get much better back and forth....We just proved that Michael. Thanks.
 
Take this one little quote... People are being dropped that had too much insurance ONLY, except other people are being dropped for a variety of other reasons.
Nonsense. If people are being dropped because they had insurance which exceeded the minimum required by Obamacare, that is not the fault of Obamacare. That was the point. Only the people who had insurance which did not meet the minimum standards under Obamacare would be effected, and that will usually apply to those who had what's commonly known as catastrophic insurance.

Leave it to you to try and claim I said something wrong which was not wrong. Oh, and I didn't post that in response to you, I posted it in response to the user Grant.

So not only did you claim I said something wrong which wasn't, you also couldn't provide a single example of where I posted something to you which was untrue. At this point, my point is proven.

I bet you don't even see that this paragraph is a logical fallacy in and of itself.
I suspect you don't even understand what a fallacy is.
 
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Ok, that's a fair response Michael, and I would only say that 1. I don't know what country you are hailing from, so I can't make any assessment of that.

One problem, that people that only see extremes in party affiliations is with labeling in the MSM drives the derision. So when Rachel Maddow, and the others on MSNBC started the whole "teabagger" thing with their snickers, and their childish undertones of the sexual connotations was downright over the top, and those who use it regularly IMHO can not be taken seriously, and you seem like a much smarter guy when it isn't about scoring some cheap shots.

Libertarians have some valid points, but as with any ideology all can produce extremes. A word which I hate using today because of its very notion in the news today, conjures up visions of radical terrorists. But, in any case, a balance is the way we have done things in this country since its founding, and only until recent history, say 80 years has the shift been toward less obvious changes that promote certain traps, and tools of politic like marginalizing, and less than honest consideration. But I think if we can drop the inflammatory language, and move from there, we get much better back and forth....We just proved that Michael. Thanks.

You appear to be quite sane with your politics and so that leaves me wondering why you are even concerned with the extremist element of conservatism and the protecting of their image. It strikes me that you would rather be showing your disdain for such. And then perhaps more importantly, your fear of what they are doing to moderate conservatism.

I don't think Rachel Maddow even used the term or had anything to do with originating it. I do know that it's nothing more than an extremist left leaning sideshow as is Fox news for the extreme right. I would hope we could confine our discussion to something that is confined to a more moderate approach.

My mention of the childish overtones of 'sexual connotations' of the term was only intended to illustrate just how childish the notion really is. I probably shouldn't discuss it too much because it was the stated reason why I shouldn't be using the term, by one of the modertors. For more details contact me personally. Suffice to say it's rubbish!

I'm Canadian and have tried to make that well known.

As to 'libertarians', my opinion is that a closer analysis of their ideology always leads to the uncovering of the fact that they really don't have any valid or good ideas that are original to the philosophy. Indeed, when questioned they almost always resort to claims of them not being understood. Nonsense at least on my part as I took part on supplyside forum and Jude Wanniski's Talkshop for about ten years where nearly all of the participants were libertarians. If you are suggesting that they are predisposed to terrorism then I'm totally unaware of it.

Did I address all your points satisfactorily?

One additional point I would like to make is that I don't see a real dividing line between conservatism and liberalism. I see my own government's working as a blend between the two and so consequently have no real animosity toward conservatives. It doesn't have to be that way, but I also believe that it is in your country to a much higher degree than it is in mine.

If we compared Obama to Bush2 on the basis of liberal/conservative alone then I think we would find very little difference. Perhaps an understanding of that would lead to less hate on both sides.
 
Nonsense. If people are being dropped because they had insurance which exceeded the minimum required by Obamacare, that is not the fault of Obamacare.

What you are saying here to Bman is correct, however, maybe you can address something for me....In the roll out this past month, as well as the numbers we see coming out on enrollment, there is a real purposely misleading component to what is being put out here....

1. the administration is saying that they have over 700k "applications" over and over, and we know that you must fill out an application to have even have the ability to compare policies, and even when they knew that little trick wasn't going to work, and put in a button to see the policies they are still not even close to what a final cost may be for shoppers.

2. the next mis truth they are telling, or to be fair not explaining, is that of those that they are touting as 'signed up' especially in states like KY where the democrat governor went along with the plan and started their own exchange, is that roughly 85% or better of those signed up are on Medicaid, not purchasing anything...That is misleading at best.

If Obama, and demo's want to get this to work, they are going to have to be a lot more honest than that...I don't know if they can be.
 
You appear to be quite sane with your politics and so that leaves me wondering why you are even concerned with the extremist element of conservatism and the protecting of their image. It strikes me that you would rather be showing your disdain for such. And then perhaps more importantly, your fear of what they are doing to moderate conservatism.

I don't think Rachel Maddow even used the term or had anything to do with originating it. I do know that it's nothing more than an extremist left leaning sideshow as is Fox news for the extreme right. I would hope we could confine our discussion to something that is confined to a more moderate approach.

My mention of the childish overtones of 'sexual connotations' of the term was only intended to illustrate just how childish the notion really is. I probably shouldn't discuss it too much because it was the stated reason why I shouldn't be using the term, by one of the modertors. For more details contact me personally. Suffice to say it's rubbish!

I'm Canadian and have tried to make that well known.

As to 'libertarians', my opinion is that a closer analysis of their ideology always leads to the uncovering of the fact that they really don't have any valid or good ideas that are original to the philosophy. Indeed, when questioned they almost always resort to claims of them not being understood. Nonsense at least on my part as I took part on supplyside forum and Jude Wanniski's Talkshop for about ten years where nearly all of the participants were libertarians. If you are suggesting that they are predisposed to terrorism then I'm totally unaware of it.

Did I address all your points satisfactorily?

One additional point I would like to make is that I don't see a real dividing line between conservatism and liberalism. I see my own government's working as a blend between the two and so consequently have no real animosity toward conservatives. It doesn't have to be that way, but I also believe that it is in your country to a much higher degree than it is in mine.

If we compared Obama to Bush2 on the basis of liberal/conservative alone then I think we would find very little difference. Perhaps an understanding of that would lead to less hate on both sides.

Absolutely outstanding post!

I have a whole different view of you at this point than I did before I settled down and really talked to you, which was my fault.

Funny on the moderate conservative thing though, although I see myself much like that, others in here that have posted with me for the last 10 years plus would probably scoff at that, and part of that is totally my own fault, but you have had a hand in convincing me that I have got to moderate my posting style, along with others in here.

I really believe it is about time.

Thanks.
 
Absolutely outstanding post!

I have a whole different view of you at this point than I did before I settled down and really talked to you, which was my fault.

Funny on the moderate conservative thing though, although I see myself much like that, others in here that have posted with me for the last 10 years plus would probably scoff at that, and part of that is totally my own fault, but you have had a hand in convincing me that I have got to moderate my posting style, along with others in here.

I really believe it is about time.

Thanks.

Thank you. I think I can remain capable of sane discussion with sane people such as you. However, we need to keep in mind that many on both sides are not the least bit interested in doing that. I will also admit that I haven't attempted to come off as a moderate. But I wonder if there is much value in doing that as opposed to taking the opposite extremist position to those I consider to be extremists.

If a supporter of the TP wants to discuss philosophy and leave out the undesirable extremist elements then I'm more than willing. I see very little evidence of a preference to do that and so I can only see them as representing the other. So if I hear an argument against Obama which I perceive to be invalid then I immediately perceive it as the party having bad intentions. I really don't see the value of moderating my approach in the face of that sort of behaviour and so I'll fight fire with fire. And I'll also continue to start a few of my own fires with that kind of people here. Otherwise, I don't really see much of a need for you to moderate your own approach either. And I think you are fully aware of no matter what you do you are still going to be accused of being a RINO. Or maybe a CINO? Just keep in mind that you are aware of what conservatism means and they don't.
 
Its entirely possible that the elimination of pre-existing conditions, elimination of no-drop-of-coverage, and the like are too expensive. If its so expensive, like some of the examples CBS news has been reporting, that people just can't afford insurance anymore, we could see another round of bailouts to prevent a catastrophic systematic failure of the health insurance market.

The only way out of the death spiral, would be to allow insurers to re-create policies/markets that are exempt from the law's coverage mandates. Don't bother suggesting single-payer as a way out, because of two reasons: 1) It would take way too long to implement(see existing implementation issues). 2) Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me( see existing implementation issues).

You obviously don't have a pre-existing condition or you wouldn't be saying that. We need to make the effort to at least match other western nations. Are you saying we as a nation are inferior by nature and can't hope to give our population that same benefits as Canada or France? This loser attitude is distressing and is a symptom of greed. Backwards thinking is another.
 
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