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Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

OldWorldOrder said:
I think this part bears repeating. That said- and it's VERY important to have that said- we can still be dubious about the claims of civilians vs militants. Still, it's a very good ratio and better than what consistent operations of other types would produce, while those other operations also increased the risk of coalition deaths.



This, too, bears mentioning again. You can't say that American attacks somehow disengender the population to Americans while ignoring that Taliban attacks can likewise disengender the population to the Taliban, and at a much higher rate. To ignore one for the other is just pushing an agenda.
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The Pakistani govt often comes off as schizophrenic in it's approuch to these issues because it's playing a number of angles and is often heavily divided among various competing bodies, with disparate goals and objectives. And I am sure a number of those divisions recognize the value of the drone program in dealing with various internal threats. And it's not like they have taken any hard measures to end the program, which would simply consist of actively attempting to shoot them down.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Dr. Chuckles said:
The Pakistani govt often comes off as schizophrenic in it's approuch to these issues because it's playing a number of angles and is often heavily divided among various competing bodies, with disparate goals and objectives. And I am sure a number of those divisions recognize the value of the drone program in dealing with various internal threats. And it's not like they have taken any hard measures to end the program, which would simply consist of actively attempting to shoot them down.
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I wonder how we'd respond to our drones being shot down. It is technically an attack on our military, but isn't something that could do any harm to our troops or our civilians.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Dr. Chuckles said:
The Pakistani govt often comes off as schizophrenic in it's approuch to these issues because it's playing a number of angles and is often heavily divided among various competing bodies, with disparate goals and objectives. And I am sure a number of those divisions recognize the value of the drone program in dealing with various internal threats. And it's not like they have taken any hard measures to end the program, which would simply consist of actively attempting to shoot them down.
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You're right, of course, but the rhetoric they put out towards the masses- which I think this/these report/reports would mostly qualify as- is generally anti-American. Of course, I can see why they'd like to appear that way, I'm not judging them for it, for that is how it normally is.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

OldWorldOrder said:
You're right, of course, but the rhetoric they put out towards the masses- which I think this/these report/reports would mostly qualify as- is generally anti-American. Of course, I can see why they'd like to appear that way, I'm not judging them for it, for that is how it normally is.
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Yeah, I think the protests are simply for mass consumption and take this type of report as an attempt to soften the public view of the program. But as I mentioned above, it's really hard to get a fix on what the Pakistanis are actually doing. Being that the govt hardly acts as a united front
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

OldWorldOrder said:
Thanks for the post, a cut above much of the nonsense usually posted here.

I like the distinction between counterinsurgency and counterterrorism- I've found it's something a lot of people don't understand and use interchangeably. However, I disagree that it was attempted and didn't work in Iraq. I feel strongly that a huge reason why Iraq went to **** was precisely because the Bush Administration didn't understand anything about either counterinsurgency OR counterterrorism and simply focused on the traditional concepts of invasion and the deposition of Iraqi government. Of course, later Bush saw his mistake and tried to rectify it, but the genie was already out of the bottle.

I also disagree that Afghanistan got much "worse". It's been a ****ty place for over 30 years now. The US invasion didn't really change much there. The Taliban had only "won" ~5 or so years previous to the American invasion and even then the Northern Alliance ruled a third of the country, with skirmishes on their "borders". And the US "touched" Mindanao and it's better now than then.
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thanks for the thoughtful response. By "worse" (AfPak) i should have said worthLESS - meaning our long endeavor there.

Odds are pretty good the place will revert to it's own feudal ways once we stop propping up this fictional Afgan National Forces -in itself an oxymoron,
as you rightly point out there really isn't any latent nationalism there.

Iraq DOES have a nationalist character - and our emphasis on "nationbuilding" was a correct effort; albeit a bad mistake to invade.

If we hadn't dissolved the Iraqi Army, and been so busy tearing out the Iraqi gov't -maybe a counterinsurgency strategy might have worked. Maybe...
Thing is. I kinna think only a dictator lke Saddam couild hold that place togther, as it's coming apart at the seams now, but it's a valid debate point
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Ikari said:
The intellectual dishonesty of your argument is your false dichotomy where you pretend it's either violence or nothing.
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But that's exactly what you're arguing. You seem to think that these psychopaths and sadists and fanatics in Yemen, Pakistan, and elsewhere won't be a threat to us as long as we stop being so mean to them.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

MadLib said:
But that's exactly what you're arguing. You seem to think that these psychopaths and sadists and fanatics in Yemen, Pakistan, and elsewhere won't be a threat to us as long as we stop being so mean to them.
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I sense a little Hitchens in that line.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Sherman123 said:
I sense a little Hitchens in that line.
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I always thought having hitchens tell you to go **** yourself would have been a wonderful experiance
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Northern Light said:
The only one waging war here is the United States. We started this "intervention", because our military-industrial complex demanded it. We are a warring nation whose government, economic expansion, and culture are all predicated upon conflict. If there's no conflict then the U.S. can't function in the world; our vast empire of bases in most countries and military treaties become redundant.

The entire domino effect of Muslim countries growing to hate us is because we started killing them first, not the other way around. We have more wars than ever right now because of the U.S. Even if we go back to the pre-text for all this war on terrorism, we find that 9/11 was caused by people that we trained.

If you want wars to end then you need to stop waging them. It's that simple. We weren't just targeted by terrorists in vacuo, we committed real atrocities against their societies over the course of decades, and we're STILL doing it now. The massive wars being fought right now were started by us. It's about our corporate interests, our natural resources, our socioeconomic way of life and colonization of other countries with our manifest destiny, and our ridiculous two-faced foreign policy. Don't delude yourself.

The war on terror and all our campaigns in the Middle East are based on damned lies.
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Ah, masochism mixed with a little bit of conspiracy. The reason these people feel the need to blow up UN buildings, beat women, behead journalists, and fly planes into skyscrapers, is because of us and our behavior towards the Muslim world. Never mind the fact that we hadn't been waging in any Muslim country unilaterally and without provocation since the 1950s. Never mind the fact that we saved two separate Muslim populations from systematic deportation and murder in what was Yugoslavia. Never mind the fact that our policy has been to aid in development and eliminate ethnic and sectarian differences, while at the same time giving people their first ever open democratic elections. And never mind the fact that violence in the Muslim world has largely been occurring separately from the United States' foreign policy, and the perpetrators have sometimes even been aided by it.
 
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Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Sherman123 said:
I sense a little Hitchens in that line.
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Haha, I've been reading his articles and watching his Youtube videos for a while now. I like his writing style, and I think it's been influencing mine a little bit :)
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

MadLib said:
Ah, masochism mixed with a little bit of conspiracy. The reason these people feel the need to blow up UN buildings, beat women, behead journalists, and fly planes into skyscrapers, is because of us and our behavior towards the Muslim world. Never mind the fact that we hadn't been waging in any Muslim country unilaterally and without provocation since the 1950s. Never mind the fact that we saved two separate Muslim populations from systematic deportation and murder in what was Yugoslavia. Never mind the fact that our policy has been to aid in development and eliminate ethnic and sectarian differences, while at the same time giving people their first ever open democratic elections. And never mind the fact that violence in the Muslim world has largely been occurring separately from the United States' foreign policy, and the perpetrators have sometimes even been aided by it.
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You're ignoring all the proxy wars we have fought using their people. Just because we didn't officially declare war doesn't mean we weren't playing chess with their people.

It's not about Muslims and never has been. Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day and they were content to keep it confined to their regional squabbles until we and the Soviets decided we could put them to better use.

Afghanistan was a democracy and Iran had the potential to be such. Too bad the CIA got involved. Claiming that's a conspiracy is just another way of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la" because you don't want to hear about what your country is responsible for.

We created the very enemies that are attacking us. It has nothing to do with who is Muslim and who isn't. Azerbejan is a thriving Muslim democracy and they have no problem with us, and that's because we never played proxy war with their people. Every country that has an axe to grind with us has been wronged by us in the past, and now we're wronging them again by letting our military-industrial complex bomb the **** out of their civilizations. The multi-generational hatred will never stop now.

Pick up a history book and wake the hell up.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

MadLib said:
But that's exactly what you're arguing. You seem to think that these psychopaths and sadists and fanatics in Yemen, Pakistan, and elsewhere won't be a threat to us as long as we stop being so mean to them.
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Not at all. Terrorists can be a threat and there will always be nut jobs. These are low probability events that given enough time will be realized; yetlow probability none the less. However, what I say and what is missed perhaps with some of the emotional blood thirsty is that actions have consequences and if you want to make an intelligent and coherent response you must consider those consequences.

Nothing disappears until we collectively as a species make a choice to not engage in certain behavior. But if we act on a way that only perpetuates violence and feeds into terrorist propaganda, then we do nothing but condemn future generations to the same damned fight.

The high road is a hard row to hoe, many will not accept the consequences of moral superiority. But nothing stops until we stop. It's a basic truth.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Northern Light said:
It's not about Muslims and never has been. Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day and they were content to keep it confined to their regional squabbles until we and the Soviets decided we could put them to better use.
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1) Islam didn't even exist in Alexander's day

2)there have been a number of Islamic empires throughout history, with two recent examples being the Mughal and ottoman Empires

Afghanistan was a democracy and Iran had the potential to be such. Too bad the CIA got involved. Claiming that's a conspiracy is just another way of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la" because you don't want to hear about what your country is responsible for.
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From my understanding Afghanistan was always a country with a weak and decentralized govt, and much of the issues that lead to us involvement and the soviet invasion were homegrown and stemmed from rural resistance to urban policies meant to increase federal organization
 
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Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Northern Light said:
It's not about Muslims and never has been. Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day and they were content to keep it confined to their regional squabbles until we and the Soviets decided we could put them to better use.
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So your contention is that "Muslims"- as if they're all the same- were "content to keep it confined" for centuries but then, coincidentally around the same time the world becomes globalized via transportation and technology, American policies compel them to spread their wars beyond the Muslim world?

We created the very enemies that are attacking us. It has nothing to do with who is Muslim and who isn't. Azerbejan is a thriving Muslim democracy and they have no problem with us, and that's because we never played proxy war with their people. Every country that has an axe to grind with us has been wronged by us in the past, and now we're wronging them again by letting our military-industrial complex bomb the **** out of their civilizations. The multi-generational hatred will never stop now.
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That's so incredibly self-centered, I don't know where to start. The world doesn't revolve around American policies.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Northern Light said:
You're ignoring all the proxy wars we have fought using their people. Just because we didn't officially declare war doesn't mean we weren't playing chess with their people.
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Our support of dictators in the Islamic world was despicable, but it's not as if we were launching an indiscriminate war of aggression against them and then were falsely outraged when they took it back to us - we were utilizing existing conflicts to advance our own interests. Furthermore, we've made significant progress in reversing the destruction that was visited upon the Islamic world in the past half century, so that is a moot point by now.
Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day
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Muslim tribes didn't exist in Alexander the Great's day.
Afghanistan was a democracy and Iran had the potential to be such. Too bad the CIA got involved.
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A communist puppet state is hardly a democracy, and Mossadegh would have likely become a dictator himself.
Claiming that's a conspiracy is just another way of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la" because you don't want to hear about what your country is responsible for.
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Being a veteran of the pacifist left, I'm more than happy to criticize what my country has done - indeed, in regards to our Cold War policy in Latin America and Indochina, I still do. However, I also call out dishonest exaggerations when I see them.
Azerbejan is a thriving Muslim democracy and they have no problem with us, and that's because we never played proxy war with their people.
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Ever heard of Karabakh?
Every country that has an axe to grind with us has been wronged by us in the past, and now we're wronging them again by letting our military-industrial complex bomb the **** out of their civilizations. The multi-generational hatred will never stop now.
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The Vietnamese, Cambodians, Chileans, East Timorese, Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Guatemalans, and Cypriots all would have a legitimate gripe against us, but the Muslim world doesn't. Our actions towards Arabs and Persians simply have never been aggressive enough to warrant their response.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Northern Light said:
You're ignoring all the proxy wars we have fought using their people. Just because we didn't officially declare war doesn't mean we weren't playing chess with their people.

It's not about Muslims and never has been. Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day and they were content to keep it confined to their regional squabbles until we and the Soviets decided we could put them to better use.

Afghanistan was a democracy and Iran had the potential to be such. Too bad the CIA got involved. Claiming that's a conspiracy is just another way of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la" because you don't want to hear about what your country is responsible for.

We created the very enemies that are attacking us. It has nothing to do with who is Muslim and who isn't. Azerbejan is a thriving Muslim democracy and they have no problem with us, and that's because we never played proxy war with their people. Every country that has an axe to grind with us has been wronged by us in the past, and now we're wronging them again by letting our military-industrial complex bomb the **** out of their civilizations. The multi-generational hatred will never stop now.

Pick up a history book and wake the hell up.
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What.... what are you talking about? Azerbaijan is an insanely autocratic country with a vicious personality cult around the Aliyev family. I've never been to a more corrupt and authoritarian country. It's the only place I can think of where you literally have secret police follow you around for the duration of your stay if you are doing any business whatsoever there. They are friendly with us because Russia is to their north, Iran is to their south, and Western energy markets are to their West.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Ikari said:
Not at all. Terrorists can be a threat and there will always be nut jobs. These are low probability events that given enough time will be realized; yetlow probability none the less. However, what I say and what is missed perhaps with some of the emotional blood thirsty is that actions have consequences and if you want to make an intelligent and coherent response you must consider those consequences.

Nothing disappears until we collectively as a species make a choice to not engage in certain behavior. But if we act on a way that only perpetuates violence and feeds into terrorist propaganda, then we do nothing but condemn future generations to the same damned fight.

The high road is a hard row to hoe, many will not accept the consequences of moral superiority. But nothing stops until we stop. It's a basic truth.
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When have we ever done this? I do not think we have ever 'collectively as a species' made a decision about anything. Modern morality, civilizational standards, and societal norms are the result of hard fought victories over the preceding several hundred years. The shift towards inhibiting international conflict, promoting democratic self-rule, and recognizing humanitarian atrocities did not result from a collective human decision. They resulted from the crucible of violence that the Western democracies fought in and the order we managed to forge.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Sherman123 said:
What.... what are you talking about? Azerbaijan is an insanely autocratic country with a vicious personality cult around the Aliyev family. I've never been to a more corrupt and authoritarian country. It's the only place I can think of where you literally have secret police follow you around for the duration of your stay if you are doing any business whatsoever there. They are friendly with us because Russia is to their north, Iran is to their south, and Western energy markets are to their West.
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What's your take on the Karabakh issue?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

MadLib said:
What's your take on the Karabakh issue?
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I support Azerbaijan for political reasons, at this stage I also think they have the stronger moral argument. That being said I do not see how peaceful integration will ever feasibly occur. Azerbaijan, and the Aliyev clan in particular, have used Nagorno as a patriotic distraction for years. The ferocity of feeling about it is greater I think even than over the Israeli-Palestinian issue. If Azeri's took hold of Nagorno they would slaughter the Armenians. The only dimly plausible solution is permanent regional autonomy for Nagorno with formal re-integration into Azerbaijan. That will only be possible when Azerbaijan is a true democratic power and a much more equitable society.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

MadLib said:
Our support of dictators in the Islamic world was despicable, but it's not as if we were launching an indiscriminate war of aggression against them and then were falsely outraged when they took it back to us - we were utilizing existing conflicts to advance our own interests. Furthermore, we've made significant progress in reversing the destruction that was visited upon the Islamic world in the past half century, so that is a moot point by now.
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I never denied that the region had its own conflicts before we arrived. That doesn't change that what we're doing there now - bombing them, destroying their governments (some of which we helped to create), fulfilling "security" arrangements of Europe and especially Israel, creating infrastructure and economic contracts that use all of OUR corporations and people, and essentially engaging in the same old colonial BS that the west has always done - is unacceptable.

It's not black and white. We aren't some knight in shining armor. We're there for our interests, not theirs. You can't force a people to take on your societal ideology, no matter how hard you try. They will just resent you for generations. The U.S. and its European allies are fighting to install their resource systems long enough to get what they want. This has never been about bringing permanent peace to the Middle East because you can't bring peace at the butt of a rifle.

OldWorldOrder said:
So your contention is that "Muslims"- as if they're all the same- were "content to keep it confined" for centuries but then, coincidentally around the same time the world becomes globalized via transportation and technology, American policies compel them to spread their wars beyond the Muslim world?
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It's not just America it's the western bloc. We're engaging in the same kind of colonial BS that we always have, just under the new guise of globalization and "regional security". They didn't attack us because we were globalizing. READ A BOOK. Europe and the U.S. just can't help themselves.

Sherman123 said:
What.... what are you talking about? Azerbaijan is an insanely autocratic country with a vicious personality cult around the Aliyev family. I've never been to a more corrupt and authoritarian country. It's the only place I can think of where you literally have secret police follow you around for the duration of your stay if you are doing any business whatsoever there. They are friendly with us because Russia is to their north, Iran is to their south, and Western energy markets are to their West.
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Can you respond to the rest of my post now? Jesus. What's the point of writing all that if you're going to hone in on one insignificant detail while ignoring the rest?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Northern Light said:
It's not black and white. We aren't some knight in shining armor. We're there for our interests, not theirs. You can't force a people to take on your societal ideology, no matter how hard you try. They will just resent you for generations. The U.S. and its European allies are fighting to install their resource systems long enough to get what they want. This has never been about bringing permanent peace to the Middle East because you can't bring peace at the butt of a rifle.
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you praising Afghanistan as a democracy then making this argument is a little more than ironic


Can you respond to the rest of my post now? Jesus. What's the point of writing all that if you're going to hone in on one insignificant detail while ignoring the rest?
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Well, telling people "to pick up a history book" and lacking basic knowledge on the very points yiou are trying to lecture on, will have people pointing those mistakes out to you. Second, he probably figured the rest of the content was already addressed, with the various other posts pointing out the various other similar mistakes you made...
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Dr. Chuckles said:
you praising Afghanistan as a democracy then making this argument is a little more than ironic
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No, it's not. No one has addressed why we have the right to be there or why our intervention is not just a rehash of old colonial behaviors.

Dr. Chuckles said:
Well, telling people "to pick up a history book" and lacking basic knowledge on the very points yiou are trying to lecture on, will have people pointing those mistakes out to you. Second, he probably figured the rest of the content was already addressed, with the various other posts pointing out the various other similar mistakes you made...
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See above. We have no business bombing all these countries in the Middle East. We're there for our own interests, not to bring a "peace" that will never happen there. The only thing we can hope to do is maintain fragile stability until we get what we want, and then it will all fall apart again. This is about challenging OPEC and spreading our socioeconomic way of life, a.k.a imperialism. If you want to talk about ironies, the irony is that our western economic way of life is clearly on its way out as our middle class is destroyed and power shifts from democracy back to aristocracy and private hands. Yet people still swallow the gall about spreading democracy. L-M-A-O

People have such blinders on when it comes to these issues. The American propaganda machine has done such a number on their ignorant minds. Take a hard look at who is really waging these wars and stop believing everything the corporate media machine tells you.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Northern Light said:
It's not black and white. We aren't some knight in shining armor. We're there for our interests, not theirs.
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It's more than a little ironic that you say it's not black and white and then decide that the West is somehow 'bad'.

You can't force a people to take on your societal ideology, no matter how hard you try.
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Is that why people all over the world wear suits and whatnot? Is that why most of the world adheres to economic liberalism?

The U.S. and its European allies are fighting to install their resource systems long enough to get what they want. This has never been about bringing permanent peace to the Middle East because you can't bring peace at the butt of a rifle.
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Well, yeah you can, but that's beside the point: why do you think other people think it's about permanent peace? Do you think people can only support nations pursuing their interests if the interest is to bring permanent peace? I feel as if you think you're telling people something they don't know, and if they only knew what you did, they would suddenly not want West to try to pursue its interests.

It's not just America it's the western bloc. We're engaging in the same kind of colonial BS that we always have, just under the new guise of globalization and "regional security". They didn't attack us because we were globalizing. READ A BOOK. Europe and the U.S. just can't help themselves.
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lol I have a Master's in International Relations. What book do you suggest I read?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Sherman123 said:
I support Azerbaijan for political reasons, at this stage I also think they have the stronger moral argument. That being said I do not see how peaceful integration will ever feasibly occur. Azerbaijan, and the Aliyev clan in particular, have used Nagorno as a patriotic distraction for years. The ferocity of feeling about it is greater I think even than over the Israeli-Palestinian issue. If Azeri's took hold of Nagorno they would slaughter the Armenians. The only dimly plausible solution is permanent regional autonomy for Nagorno with formal re-integration into Azerbaijan. That will only be possible when Azerbaijan is a true democratic power and a much more equitable society.
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Peaceful integration?

They are a sovereign state and are under no obligation to integrate with anyone. This is what I'm talking about... the western bloc still envisions itself as the bringer of world order according to its own ideals of civilization. We don't even bother to declare war anymore, we just fashion our foreign policies under the guise of "interventions" and saving foreign states from themselves. How many countries are we in now? We're even in Africa now.

Since declaring war is no longer fashionable to most people, we simply blame problems on non-state actors and then "intervene".

The imperialism has to stop.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

OldWorldOrder said:
It's more than a little ironic that you say it's not black and white and then decide that the West is somehow 'bad'.
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Bad is such an imprecise terminology, and I never used it. Pointing out the ills of our political and cultural way of treating the rest of the world is hardly a fallacy.

OldWorldOrder said:
Is that why people all over the world wear suits and whatnot? Is that why most of the world adheres to economic liberalism?
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Is there a point to your questions?

OldWorldOrder said:
Well, yeah you can, but that's beside the point: why do you think other people think it's about permanent peace? Do you think people can only support nations pursuing their interests if the interest is to bring permanent peace? I feel as if you think you're telling people something they don't know, and if they only knew what you did, they would suddenly not want West to try to pursue its interests.
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This is an old argument. Nations have interfaced economically for millennia without even sharing the same world values. In the modern world, look at a country like China. It's becoming an economic powerhouse and it's at war with no one. The difference between them and us is that we have European colonial roots combined with our manifest destiny view that the world should be like us. Our international standing is in the gutter because war hawks, interventionists, and the financial elite have alienated us from all our key allies, and because we are increasingly treating our OWN people just as badly as we treat the people of other nations.

Don't kid yourself. Globalization is westernization, and it's about consolidating the power of the western aristocracy. Always has been. It started with the British Empire and mercantilism, and the U.S. is finishing the job with corporate capitalism.

If you have something that we want and you don't give it up willingly, we'll invade you and "bring democracy" to your country.

OldWorldOrder said:
lol I have a Master's in International Relations. What book do you suggest I read?
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Good for you.
 
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