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Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

rjay

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Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits, human rights groups say - The Washington Post

"Two influential human rights groups say they have freshly documented dozens of civilian deaths in U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen, contradicting assertions by the Obama administration that such casualties are rare.

In Yemen, Human Rights Watch investigated six selected airstrikes since 2009 and concluded that at least 57 of the 82 people killed were civilians, including a pregnant woman and three children who perished in a September 2012 attack. "


Is it time to stop the drone attacks?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

And what? Send in the Marines? The B52's?
Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits, human rights groups say - The Washington Post

"Two influential human rights groups say they have freshly documented dozens of civilian deaths in U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen, contradicting assertions by the Obama administration that such casualties are rare.

In Yemen, Human Rights Watch investigated six selected airstrikes since 2009 and concluded that at least 57 of the 82 people killed were civilians, including a pregnant woman and three children who perished in a September 2012 attack. "


Is it time to stop the drone attacks?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

And what? Send in the Marines? The B52's?

One solution might be following the law.

US drone strikes condemned in rights reports - Americas - Al Jazeera English

HRW’s 97-page report, Between a Drone and al-Qaeda': The Civilian Cost of US Targeted Killings in Yemen, examined six US targeted killings in the country - one from 2009, and the rest between 2012 and 2013.

The strikes killed 82 people, at least 57 of them civilians.

None met US policy guidelines for targeted killings set out in US President Barack Obama's speech in May, said the New York-based rights group.

"Two of the attacks killed civilians indiscriminately in clear violation of the laws of war; the others may have targeted people who were not legitimate military objectives or caused disproportionate civilian deaths," said HRW.

A witness quoted in the report described the aftermath of one strike targeting an alleged al-Qaeda leader, but instead struck a passenger van killing 12 civilians.

"The bodies were charred like coal - I could not recognise the faces," Ahmad al-Sabooli, a 23 year-old Yemeni farmer, said.

International law prohibits arbitrary killings and limits intentional lethal force to exceptional situations wherein in an armed conflict, only combatants and those participating in hostilities may be targeted.

Intentional lethal force is lawful only when there is, with certainty, an imminent threat to life.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Intentional lethal force is lawful only when there is, with certainty, an imminent threat to life.

And there is the government's argument. Have fun proving otherwise.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Drone strikes can kill terrorists but they will multiply all the more.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Drone strikes can kill terrorists but they will multiply all the more.

Of course. It is human nature. More and more civilians being killed by drone attacks means more family members who now sympathize with terrorists.

The whole drone program is short-sighted. It is the U.S. pressing the advantage. The time will come when many countries have this capability. When that happens the U.S. will be doing everything it can to prevent renegade countries from developing the technology. They will be worried that just because using Drones indiscimately used to be okay, some countries may think it is still okay.

Terrorist organizations may even get their hands on the technology. The day will come when the U.S. President never leaves the U.S., because to do so would require massive air support. The host country must be willing to have U.S. warplanes in their airspace and accept the possibility that a rogue drone or two may rain down on their population.

Perhaps the time has come to revisit this program. The way it is currently being used assures that its use will continue to be required.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Is it time to stop the drone attacks?

I think it is time for the human rights watch to actually stand for human rights by taking into account the business terrorists and their supporters are engaged in.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

I don't think we should give up the drones strike, as they appear to be effective and AFAIK we don't have any other systems that are as stealthy, responsive, and flexible.

That said, we need to recognize the drones are effectively a terror weapon, since even when not used on civilians it has a psychological effect, since such a strike can land virtually anywhere without warning.

So in order to maintain even the illusion of the morale high ground, we need to make it very clear what we require in order to remove this threat from the people of these regions.

Presumably, that's handing over the terrorists that live amongst them.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Exactly the same logic applies to war.
Drone strikes can kill terrorists but they will multiply all the more.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

I think it is time for the human rights watch to actually stand for human rights by taking into account the business terrorists and their supporters are engaged in.

You realize that there are four different reports being tabled at the U.N. from four different Human Rights groups concerning the drone program.

If you are unable to find a thread that fits your subject, perhaps you should start a thread on business terrorists.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Is it time to stop the drone attacks?

No. It's time for "innocent" "civilians" to stop hanging around in the same places as terrorists.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

We are fighting the war on terror with terror.

I can honestly say I have 0 fear of a terrorist attack on me or my family or that we would be close enough for a terror attack to get to us.

To be one of these people in the targeted area, a place where we fly the drones day after day, it is horrible. We are mentally terrorizing innocent civilians. We make new terrorists with each day. Our pinpoint, surgical attacks are just excellent salesmanship. They are not pinpoint...they are not surgical. We are constantly violating the sovereignty of other nations.

Inexcusable.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

You realize that there are four different reports being tabled at the U.N. from four different Human Rights groups concerning the drone program.

If you are unable to find a thread that fits your subject, perhaps you should start a thread on business terrorists.

Yes, by all means lets try to squelch any points that do not conform to your own.

If you have not given any thought to the bigger picture that is your problem, not mine. By not taking into account the fact that terrorists are in the very business of destroying human rights, both for their victims as well as the ideology they intend to implement, nor the fact that their supporters living with them share this intent, you fail to understand what human rights are all about.

Yes, it is tragic when children are killed. Why you have made a choice that the children who are to be the victims of terrorists do not matter is beyond me, as that is the result of NOT responding to terrorism.

In the algebra of warfare, one needs to consider the ramifications of inaction as well as action. Had the world confronted Hitler years before it did, how many lives could have been saved? Would you have allowed no response to German aggression simply because innocent people would die? They die either way, so the truly rational approach, and the one that actually takes human rights into account is one that considers all sides of the equation and not just one.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

No. It's time for "innocent" "civilians" to stop hanging around in the same places as terrorists.

When you make jokes you should put a smiley face. Otherwise someone might actually equate this response with your intellectual capacity to respond to a topic in a thoughtful way.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Actually that kinda made me wonder if they really know. If they do, they they are in fact at least partically to blame for their incineration.
When you make jokes you should put a smiley face. Otherwise someone might actually equate this response with your intellectual capacity to respond to a topic in a thoughtful way.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Actually that kinda made me wonder if they really know. If they do, they they are in fact at least partically to blame for their incineration.

I don't know what my neighbor is doing, nor should I.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Actually that kinda made me wonder if they really know. If they do, they they are in fact at least partically to blame for their incineration.

So if you are having dinner with your family, you should be aware that a vehicle with a suspected terrorist in it, is right now, driving down your street. And if you do not move, now, the glass from that nice picture window will behead your two year-old.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Actually that kinda made me wonder if they really know. If they do, they they are in fact at least partically to blame for their incineration.

It's odd how some people use the term "innocent", isn't it? In the case of Islamist terrorism, apologists call people "innocent" who actually support the objective, share the ideology and wish to implement he same soul crushing ideology as Islamist terrorists.

It makes for better propaganda that way.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Yes, by all means lets try to squelch any points that do not conform to your own.

If you have not given any thought to the bigger picture that is your problem, not mine. By not taking into account the fact that terrorists are in the very business of destroying human rights, both for their victims as well as the ideology they intend to implement, nor the fact that their supporters living with them share this intent, you fail to understand what human rights are all about.

Yes, it is tragic when children are killed. Why you have made a choice that the children who are to be the victims of terrorists do not matter is beyond me, as that is the result of NOT responding to terrorism.

In the algebra of warfare, one needs to consider the ramifications of inaction as well as action. Had the world confronted Hitler years before it did, how many lives could have been saved? Would you have allowed no response to German aggression simply because innocent people would die? They die either way, so the truly rational approach, and the one that actually takes human rights into account is one that considers all sides of the equation and not just one.

Well, this post is a little clearer to me. I had no idea what you meant by 'the business or terrorists' in your other post. It just didn't click in my mind.

The report being tabled does not address human rights attrocities being visited upon people by terrorist ogrganizations. There are othe human rights reports that talk to this issue. The subject of this report, and thus this thread is human rights violations committed by the U.S. through its drone program.

You seem to want to get into the game of 'You commit bigger human rights violations than I do' with terror organizations. It would be hard to argue against that point. I don't think the purpose of this report is to say the U.S. commits the most violations. It is to say that the U.S. is commiting violations, and you seem to agree.

The question this report raises is this.
Should the U.S. continue with the drone program? ( I will put you down for a yes) :)
Are we carrying out the drone program in the best way possible?
What are the ramifications of carying on, as is, without making changes? Can we reach our goals?

I don't think anyone is saying that we just ignore terrorism and maybe it will go away. I think the U.S. has, in the last nuber of years, made being in the top echelon of al-queda a very undesirable position to have. This is a sign of success.

I know if I was in al-queda I would not be looking for a promotion :)

I think most here agree that we need to combat terrorism. The debate in this thread is whether continuing drone attacks, the current way, makes sense.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

And what? Send in the Marines? The B52's?

Well, the leftists could restart their "war crimes" nonsense against Obama like they did against Bush every time somebody got killed.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

When you make jokes you should put a smiley face. Otherwise someone might actually equate this response with your intellectual capacity to respond to a topic in a thoughtful way.

I don't have a sense of humor. It was surgically removed during my childhood.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Is using drones somehow "worse" than using manned planes or maneuver battalions?
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits, human rights groups say - The Washington Post

"Two influential human rights groups say they have freshly documented dozens of civilian deaths in U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen, contradicting assertions by the Obama administration that such casualties are rare.

In Yemen, Human Rights Watch investigated six selected airstrikes since 2009 and concluded that at least 57 of the 82 people killed were civilians, including a pregnant woman and three children who perished in a September 2012 attack. "


Is it time to stop the drone attacks?

We care about not killing civilians? Remember it's terrorism when you strap a bomb to yourself and blow up civilian areas, not when you drop bombs from sophisticated weapon platforms.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits, human rights groups say - The Washington Post

"Two influential human rights groups say they have freshly documented dozens of civilian deaths in U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen, contradicting assertions by the Obama administration that such casualties are rare.

In Yemen, Human Rights Watch investigated six selected airstrikes since 2009 and concluded that at least 57 of the 82 people killed were civilians, including a pregnant woman and three children who perished in a September 2012 attack. "


Is it time to stop the drone attacks?

Since Terrorist don't meet the legal definition of a Combatant, they are all civilians.

As to the rest, if you are hanging around with know terrorist and a drone drops a bomb on him while you are nearby, oh, should of found better friends to handout with.
 
Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits, human rights groups say - The Washington Post

"Two influential human rights groups say they have freshly documented dozens of civilian deaths in U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen, contradicting assertions by the Obama administration that such casualties are rare.

In Yemen, Human Rights Watch investigated six selected airstrikes since 2009 and concluded that at least 57 of the 82 people killed were civilians, including a pregnant woman and three children who perished in a September 2012 attack. "


Is it time to stop the drone attacks?

It's funny how Democrats accept "drone strike" as a politically correct way to say "assassinate".
 
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