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Thread: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    What the people want won't matter when they're up against automatic weapons and tanks.
    So they cannot hold together a democracy, that's what I thought. Our guns will not make that so either because if we are to leave the natural order will take over. So only through continued interventionism could we even hope to have a chance, and we're f'n that up now so we don't have that chance. Superb. That's worth over a trillion dollars and thousands of American lives. (Psssst, that was sarcasm).
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    South Korea didn't really benefit
    hahahahahah
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    1. I've never even heard of a people, as a collective body, rejecting democracy. Have you?

    2. Aren't you judging this by a democratic standard? Isn't measuring whether or not people want democracy and then making policy decisions based on that majority opinion in and of itself a form of democracy?
    In Afghanistan, the people wanted to go back to the centuries old way or type of government and to their old portion of Afghanistan, call it tribal government. Remember we at one time had 14 of the 18 tribes of Afghanistan on our side (The Northern Alliance) against the Taliban and the 3 tribes loyal to them. What the tribes wanted was local rule by tribal chieftains/elders like they had before the Taliban decide to united the country under their control. Before than each tribe pretty much govern it own people in what ever section of Afghanistan they lived with a series of shifting alliances with other tribes when needed.

    What we did as part of nation building was basically force democracy on a people who wanted tribal rule. As time has gone by, tribes which were friendly to us, our allies to begin with has turn against us and against Karzi which most of our original friendly 14 tribe Northern Alliance members now see as an enemy much in the line of the Taliban. In this case what the people and the majority of tribes wanted, tribal rule of their own, we denied. Bottom line is we are not looked upon very fondly over there anymore.

    To go into this any deeper would take a book, but this should give you an idea.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    hahahahahah
    It didn't. It was divided up after Japan was defeated in WW II. our interventionism didn't improve anything, it had merely maintained the status quo. History for the win. I suggest you perhaps learn it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    A lot of those places are terrible.The modern countries in there, Germany and Japan, are outliers. Also, that was our last declared war. South Korea didn't really benefit and that war mostly was their own work and we did little. Haiti...really? You do realize the state of affairs there, yeah?

    Meanwhile the entirety of the ME still in choas and we didn't bring anything good. All our intervention in Central and South America over the many decades hasn't produced anything either. All in all, few conflicts have been brought to true fruition through force; particularly through imperial interventionism. And if anything it has led to huge increases in our own government so we as a People net out less for it as well.
    All this really demonstrates is that you have little knowledge of the impact of our foreign intervention on democracy and human rights. All the countries or regions I listed, while not necessarily utopias of prosperity and liberty, are or were better off than if we had not intervened.

    But can you possibly believe, even for one second, as a rational human, that South Korea didn't benefit from our intervention?
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So they cannot hold together a democracy, that's what I thought.
    But it has nothing to do with willpower. The fact that there isn't democracy doesn't prove that the people don't want it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    All this really demonstrates is that you have little knowledge of the impact of our foreign intervention on democracy and human rights. All the countries or regions I listed, while not necessarily utopias of prosperity and liberty, are or were better off than if we had not intervened.

    But can you possibly believe, even for one second, as a rational human, that South Korea didn't benefit from our intervention?
    Haiti is F'd up. Japan wasn't some brutal dictatorship before us, as all countries growing up it had certainly times of it, but it wasn't what you'd call a despot nation during WW II. Germany was, but Germany historically also had democracy and wasn't opposed to it. So those are out. SK is about the most prosperous of the bunch you listed, so you have 1 country in the history of war where it turned out well. And even that was less to do with us "delivering freedom" to them and less about imperial occupation than our current wars.

    So you got an exception that proves the rule and nothing more.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    But it has nothing to do with willpower. The fact that there isn't democracy doesn't prove that the people don't want it.
    It has everything to do with the willpower and determination of the People. If the People do not have what it takes to win freedom, they do not have what it takes to keep freedom. The fact that there isn't democracy proves they are incapable of achieving it. They are too fractured and too emotional for it at this point.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It didn't. It was divided up after Japan was defeated in WW II. our interventionism didn't improve anything, it had merely maintained the status quo. History for the win. I suggest you perhaps learn it.
    20131104_203832.jpg
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by rjay View Post
    One solution might be following the law.

    US drone strikes condemned in rights reports - Americas - Al Jazeera English

    HRW’s 97-page report, Between a Drone and al-Qaeda': The Civilian Cost of US Targeted Killings in Yemen, examined six US targeted killings in the country - one from 2009, and the rest between 2012 and 2013.

    The strikes killed 82 people, at least 57 of them civilians.

    None met US policy guidelines for targeted killings set out in US President Barack Obama's speech in May, said the New York-based rights group.

    "Two of the attacks killed civilians indiscriminately in clear violation of the laws of war; the others may have targeted people who were not legitimate military objectives or caused disproportionate civilian deaths," said HRW.

    A witness quoted in the report described the aftermath of one strike targeting an alleged al-Qaeda leader, but instead struck a passenger van killing 12 civilians.

    "The bodies were charred like coal - I could not recognise the faces," Ahmad al-Sabooli, a 23 year-old Yemeni farmer, said.

    International law prohibits arbitrary killings and limits intentional lethal force to exceptional situations wherein in an armed conflict, only combatants and those participating in hostilities may be targeted.

    Intentional lethal force is lawful only when there is, with certainty, an imminent threat to life.
    82 causalities. 57 civilians means 25 militants. I'm willing to put money that those 25 militants would kill more then 57 people. Heck one militant could kill 57 people alone. I don't like it any more then you do, but if the net effect is saving lives there really aren't many other options. I know countries like Pakistan actually feed us the intel that is used to conduct drone strikes there. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the rule rather then the exception.

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