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Thread: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

  1. #301
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, my reactions are measured. Decades of interventionism hasn't gotten us anywhere good,
    It didn't? The US led the Western world to the highest standard of living that humans have ever experienced. And yes, I say led, because partially because the West was able to flourish because of US military protection. Including intervention. That's not made up. That's a fact.

    and thus decades more will bring us to no better place.
    Let's assume you were right (you're not) about intervention "not getting us anywhere good". Past performance guarantees future results? I mean, your sentence didn't make sense even logically. "I tried to buy a car in the past, but it didn't work, I didn't have the money. I can never buy a car in the future."

    We did not fight Japan for over a decade and we were in a declared war against a unified people.
    So when does does a war become too long? 4 years and 22 days? 7 years and 4 months?

    So obviously corollaries between terrorism, our imperialism, the Middle East and our war with Japan are not accurate. Duh.
    lol, so it was more complex than your extremely simplistic model suggested? You never answered that question before? ARE THINGS MORE COMPLEX THAN YOUR EXTREMELY SIMPLISTIC STATEMENTS MAKE THEM APPEAR?

    So if we look at the measured results we see that we've killed more Americans because of our interventionism,
    Yeah, that's what happens when nations use military power to further interests.

    spent trillions of dollars we don't have (why do you think the debt ceiling is a problem...are you really not paying attention?),
    You think that's because of interventionism? Do you think gunboat diplomacy wasn't about money and opening up markets? Interventionism makes money too, that's kind of the point of it. But it has maintenance costs.

    and bills such as the Patriot Act are passed, domestic spying is enacted, draconian police state agencies such as TSA and HLS act against us, warrentless searches, etc. All in the name of fear because some people cannot rationalize out the repercussions, consequences, and dangers of freedom.
    Did you think any of those things were new? The only thing new is the technology and governments (not just the US) trying to play catch up with it.

    If this must be explained, I fear the one who must have it explained is not paying attention to anything.
    Er...that's hilarious. What do you do for a living? What was your major in college?
    Last edited by OldWorldOrder; 11-04-13 at 09:00 PM.
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  2. #302
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well better put, democracy cannot be brought by a foreigner's gun. The environment necessary for long term stabilized democracy is not quite as broadband as some would like to think. Merely going in and saying "we're bringing democracy" is not enough to actually bring democracy. As we have well demonstrated.

    There may be isolated instances of foreign occupation leading to a stabilized form of democracy, but those are exceptions which prove the rule. Obviously, the measured state of our current interventionist wars shows the opposite.
    I agree that willpower isn't enough; I don't think we should invade every undemocratic country in the world, because it simply wouldn't work in many instances. Ethnic tensions and potential for rebuilding are also important concerns, and our failure to address these in Iraq and Afghanistan is what's to blame for the mess we see today. However, foreign interventions that are actually designed to establish democracy, or to assist democratic (or even proto-democratic) freedom fighters, tend to be successful in their goal.

    It sure hasn't
    Then it's not evidence for your point.
    Actions have consequences and it's high time we learn this lesson.
    Inaction is still an action, and it still brings consequences unless we become totally isolationist. I believe that the consequences of inaction over the past few decades are worse than the consequences of action in regards to global peace and human rights as well as our national interests.
    Last edited by MadLib; 11-04-13 at 09:12 PM.
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  3. #303
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    the people of any nation must also want democracy for it to succeed. In my view, it is just as wrong to force democracy on a people as it was for the old USSR to force communism.
    1. I've never even heard of a people, as a collective body, rejecting democracy. Have you?

    2. Aren't you judging this by a democratic standard? Isn't measuring whether or not people want democracy and then making policy decisions based on that majority opinion in and of itself a form of democracy?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  4. #304
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    I don't think we should invade every undemocratic country in the world. Ethnic tensions and potential for rebuilding are also important concerns, and our failure to address these in Iraq and Afghanistan is what's to blame for the mess we see today. However, foreign interventions that are actually designed to establish democracy, or to assist democratic (or even proto-democratic) freedom fighters, tend to be successful in their goal.
    Really? When was the last time it worked out? We've been intervening in all sorts of places for a good long while; I'm not sure the statistics bear your conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Then it's not evidence for your point.


    Inaction is still an action, and it still brings consequences unless we become totally isolationist. I believe that the consequences of inaction over the past few decades are worse than the consequences of action in regards to global peace and human rights as well as our national interests.
    I take all evidence and data as is. Also, I'm not saying "inaction". That's just propaganda by warhawks who cannot comment against the failure of our interventionist policies. Military interventionism, however, has not led to any betterment for either side; particularly the side we keep bombing.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    1. I've never even heard of a people, as a collective body, rejecting democracy. Have you?
    Oh yeah? Totally withdraw from the ME and let the People of those countries make their own governments. What do you think you'd find?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Really? When was the last time it worked out? We've been intervening in all sorts of places for a good long while; I'm not sure the statistics bear your conclusion.
    Japan
    Germany
    South Korea
    Haiti
    Iraqi Kurdistan
    Panama
    Kuwait
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Kosovo

    I take all evidence and data as is.
    Even if it's entirely irrelevant to the point you're trying to make?
    Also, I'm not saying "inaction". That's just propaganda by warhawks who cannot comment against the failure of our interventionist policies.
    What are you advocating, then? And does it not also have consequences?
    Military interventionism, however, has not led to any betterment for either side; particularly the side we keep bombing.
    Our goal is not to better the side we keep bombing, since they're the common enemies of humanity. If you're referring to the civilians who we accidentally kill, they aren't the "side" we are bombing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  7. #307
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Oh yeah? Totally withdraw from the ME and let the People of those countries make their own governments. What do you think you'd find?
    It's pretty obvious that the people won't have any say in the process, warlords and imams will fairly quickly take control irrelevant of the will of the people they tyrannize
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    It's pretty obvious that the people won't have any say in the process, warlords and imams will fairly quickly take control irrelevant of the will of the people they tyrannize
    Pretty obvious? Or enough People of the region cannot unify together to hold together a democracy?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Japan
    Germany
    South Korea
    Haiti
    Iraqi Kurdistan
    Panama
    A lot of those places are terrible.The modern countries in there, Germany and Japan, are outliers. Also, that was our last declared war. South Korea didn't really benefit and that war mostly was their own work and we did little. Haiti...really? You do realize the state of affairs there, yeah?

    Meanwhile the entirety of the ME still in choas and we didn't bring anything good. All our intervention in Central and South America over the many decades hasn't produced anything either. All in all, few conflicts have been brought to true fruition through force; particularly through imperial interventionism. And if anything it has led to huge increases in our own government so we as a People net out less for it as well.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Pretty obvious? Or enough People of the region cannot unify together to hold together a democracy?
    What the people want won't matter when they're up against automatic weapons and tanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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