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Thread: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It may be platitude but apparently needs stating. In over a decade all you've managed to do is double down on our 9/11 losses, nearly bankrupt American, and decrease our overall freedom. These are not good things and they must be realized. Fighting for your future may be necessary and worthwhile; but fighting for stagnation breeds only death.
    I'll respond in a little bit but you keep pivoting from specific criticisms of post-9/11 political and military campaigns, and very broad statements like the one highlighted. The core of my initial critique centered around refuting the notion that violence breeds violence or that it is never a desired choice. Once you establish that you can move from there.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Democracy is not brought by a gun
    Several centuries of history, including our own, flatly contradict you in this regard.
    and we can ee that with our over 60 years of intervention in the middle East that it has not occurred.
    Our goal for the past 60 years hasn't been to promote democracy in the Middle East. Our military intervention in Lebanon in the 1950s and our support of Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war are examples where the promotion of democracy wasn't even an intended side effect. Now that the Soviet Union's fallen our goal has shifted from fighting the influence of communism to spreading the influence of democracy, starting with the Gulf War.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    That's just more platitudes, actually.
    It's just more reality, actually. The fact is that many would rather hide behind their emotional retorts and knee jerk reactions instead of analyzing the situation. Again, in over a decade all you've managed to do is double down on our 9/11 losses, nearly bankrupt American, and decrease our overall freedom. These are not good things and they must be realized.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Several centuries of history, including our own, flatly contradict you in this regard.
    Well better put, democracy cannot be brought by a foreigner's gun. The environment necessary for long term stabilized democracy is not quite as broadband as some would like to think. Merely going in and saying "we're bringing democracy" is not enough to actually bring democracy. As we have well demonstrated.

    There may be isolated instances of foreign occupation leading to a stabilized form of democracy, but those are exceptions which prove the rule. Obviously, the measured state of our current interventionist wars shows the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Our goal for the past 60 years hasn't been to promote democracy in the Middle East. Our military intervention in Lebanon in the 1950s and our support of Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war are examples where the promotion of democracy wasn't even an intended side effect. Now that the Soviet Union's fallen our goal has shifted from fighting the influence of communism to spreading the influence of democracy, starting with the Gulf War.
    It sure hasn't, Our several decades of intervention revolves around energy concerns. And largely still does. And of course, those several decades of interventionism, bombing other people's countries, killing their families, etc. has led to some very hostile attitudes towards Americans. Attitudes which are capitalized by terrorists in their recruitment propaganda.

    Actions have consequences and it's high time we learn this lesson.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well better put, democracy cannot be brought by a foreigner's gun. The environment necessary for long term stabilized democracy is not quite as broadband as some would like to think. Merely going in and saying "we're bringing democracy" is not enough to actually bring democracy. As we have well demonstrated.

    There may be isolated instances of foreign occupation leading to a stabilized form of democracy, but those are exceptions which prove the rule. Obviously, the measured state of our current interventionist wars shows the opposite.



    It sure hasn't, Our several decades of intervention revolves around energy concerns. And largely still does. And of course, those several decades of interventionism, bombing other people's countries, killing their families, etc. has led to some very hostile attitudes towards Americans. Attitudes which are capitalized by terrorists in their recruitment propaganda.

    Actions have consequences and it's high time we learn this lesson.
    the people of any nation must also want democracy for it to succeed. In my view, it is just as wrong to force democracy on a people as it was for the old USSR to force communism.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's just more reality, actually. The fact is that many would rather hide behind their emotional retorts and knee jerk reactions instead of analyzing the situation.
    That's exactly what you're doing!

    Again, in over a decade all you've managed to do is double down on our 9/11 losses, nearly bankrupt American, and decrease our overall freedom. These are not good things and they must be realized.
    Who is "you"? You listed three things:

    1) Double down on our 9/11 losses.

    Let's again talk about Japan in the early 1940s. Could you not say that, at a certain point, all the US had done by fighting the Japanese (as opposed to simply refusing to fight and allow Japan to operate freely in the western Pacific) was get even more Americans killed by engaging in the war? Yes, you could. Would it be accurate?

    2) Nearly bankrupt America.

    What does this even mean? Do you think the economic fall of 2008 was because of military policies? That's...not the case.

    3) Decrease our overall freedom.

    Can you be specific?

    You're speaking in generalities and are ignoring very specific points.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well better put, democracy cannot be brought by a foreigner's gun.
    Sure it can. Are you playing some game at home wherein a rebuttal can be made to your points by simply saying "Japan" or something? Because this is impressive. I have no particular boner for Japanese history so this really is either a huge coincidence or something hinky is going down.

    The environment necessary for long term stabilized democracy is not quite as broadband as some would like to think. Merely going in and saying "we're bringing democracy" is not enough to actually bring democracy. As we have well demonstrated.
    Well, I don't think anyone here has said otherwise. Have they?

    There may be isolated instances of foreign occupation leading to a stabilized form of democracy, but those are exceptions which prove the rule. Obviously, the measured state of our current interventionist wars shows the opposite.
    "It doesn't work, except for when it does."

    It sure hasn't, Our several decades of intervention revolves around energy concerns. And largely still does. And of course, those several decades of interventionism, bombing other people's countries, killing their families, etc. has led to some very hostile attitudes towards Americans. Attitudes which are capitalized by terrorists in their recruitment propaganda.

    Actions have consequences and it's high time we learn this lesson.
    So it seems like you're just plain against interventionism. You've created it as this boogeyman that you will rage against, regardless of context or result.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Sure it can. Are you playing some game at home wherein a rebuttal can be made to your points by simply saying "Japan" or something? Because this is impressive. I have no particular boner for Japanese history so this really is either a huge coincidence or something hinky is going down.
    You're the one who brought up Japan, I was just responding to it. Don't get your panties in a knot because your tactic didn't work out.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Well, I don't think anyone here has said otherwise. Have they?



    "It doesn't work, except for when it does."



    So it seems like you're just plain against interventionism. You've created it as this boogeyman that you will rage against, regardless of context or result.
    It's a measured reality. If you want to find proper solution, you must be capable of measuring and analyzing reality to see where similar choices have led us to. Duh. If one is incapable of data analysis, they should be no where near decision making. Just a fact.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    That's exactly what you're doing!



    Who is "you"? You listed three things:

    1) Double down on our 9/11 losses.

    Let's again talk about Japan in the early 1940s. Could you not say that, at a certain point, all the US had done by fighting the Japanese (as opposed to simply refusing to fight and allow Japan to operate freely in the western Pacific) was get even more Americans killed by engaging in the war? Yes, you could. Would it be accurate?

    2) Nearly bankrupt America.

    What does this even mean? Do you think the economic fall of 2008 was because of military policies? That's...not the case.

    3) Decrease our overall freedom.

    Can you be specific?

    You're speaking in generalities and are ignoring very specific points.
    No, my reactions are measured. Decades of interventionism hasn't gotten us anywhere good, and thus decades more will bring us to no better place. We did not fight Japan for over a decade and we were in a declared war against a unified people. So obviously corollaries between terrorism, our imperialism, the Middle East and our war with Japan are not accurate. Duh. So if we look at the measured results we see that we've killed more Americans because of our interventionism, spent trillions of dollars we don't have (why do you think the debt ceiling is a problem...are you really not paying attention?), and bills such as the Patriot Act are passed, domestic spying is enacted, draconian police state agencies such as TSA and HLS act against us, warrentless searches, etc. All in the name of fear because some people cannot rationalize out the repercussions, consequences, and dangers of freedom.

    If this must be explained, I fear the one who must have it explained is not paying attention to anything.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You're the one who brought up Japan, I was just responding to it. Don't get your panties in a knot because your tactic didn't work out.
    lol? I'm saying every argument you've made in the last two days in this thread has very conveniently had the same rebuttal: Japan. It's eerie. I'm not mad at you for doing it- I'm just saying it's weird. You might want to bone up on that history, though, as it seems to be your Achilles heel.

    It's a measured reality. If you want to find proper solution, you must be capable of measuring and analyzing reality to see where similar choices have led us to. Duh. If one is incapable of data analysis, they should be no where near decision making. Just a fact.
    What's a measured reality? That intervention is "bad"?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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