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Thread: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

  1. #281
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Peaceful integration?

    They are a sovereign state and are under no obligation to integrate with anyone. This is what I'm talking about... the western bloc still envisions itself as the bringer of world order according to its own ideals of civilization. We don't even bother to declare war anymore, we just fashion our foreign policies under the guise of "interventions" and saving foreign states from themselves. How many countries are we in now? We're even in Africa now.

    Since declaring war is no longer fashionable to most people, we simply blame problems on non-state actors and then "intervene".

    The imperialism has to stop.
    Who is a sovereign state? Nagorno-Karabakh? If so virtually no one else agrees, including Armenia. They are going to trod along in permanent limbo until an accord can be reach with Azerbaijan.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:16

    Quote Originally Posted by rjay View Post
    Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits, human rights groups say - The Washington Post

    "Two influential human rights groups say they have freshly documented dozens of civilian deaths in U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen, contradicting assertions by the Obama administration that such casualties are rare.

    In Yemen, Human Rights Watch investigated six selected airstrikes since 2009 and concluded that at least 57 of the 82 people killed were civilians, including a pregnant woman and three children who perished in a September 2012 attack. "


    Is it time to stop the drone attacks?

    I would not be inclined to take what "human rights" groups say at face value.

    A sovereign nation is not forbidden by any international law from defending itself against foreign combatants at war with it. It wasn't that long ago that Al Qaeda attacked one of our embassies and killed our Ambassador.

    Innocent bystanders being killed is a tragic but inevitable part of war. No war has ever been without it. Focused attacks on single individuals by the US has greatly reduced it from the levels seen in previous wars.

    It is not a war crime to inadvertently kill bystanders if the target was an enemy combatant.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    When have we ever done this? I do not think we have ever 'collectively as a species' made a decision about anything. Modern morality, civilizational standards, and societal norms are the result of hard fought victories over the preceding several hundred years. The shift towards inhibiting international conflict, promoting democratic self-rule, and recognizing humanitarian atrocities did not result from a collective human decision. They resulted from the crucible of violence that the Western democracies fought in and the order we managed to forge.
    It's what is necessary to evolve. Monkey games gets us monkey gains, nothing more. Democracy is not brought by a gun and we can ee that with our over 60 years of intervention in the middle East that it has not occurred. When dealing with terrorism and these emotional reactions, it's important to keep in mind consequence and the ability to analyze the data. So over a decade more of direct interventionism and where are we? Where are the democracies brought by jac booted thugs? We're is the success in "controlling" terrorism? We keep killing and the illing prompts more killing. It is clear from all available evidence that we are not gaining ground, we are not driving solution. All we're doing is keeping the conflict alive and playing to the propaganda of terrorists.

    People want to talk about how we're justified in our intervention because they've killed our friends and families. But we're doing the same, which would mean that they would be justified in their attacks against us using the same logic. And by engaging in it, you engage only in the never ending cycle of violence. Monkey behavior will never promote humanity.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  4. #284
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's what is necessary to evolve. Monkey games gets us monkey gains, nothing more. Democracy is not brought by a gun and we can ee that with our over 60 years of intervention in the middle East that it has not occurred. When dealing with terrorism and these emotional reactions, it's important to keep in mind consequence and the ability to analyze the data. So over a decade more of direct interventionism and where are we? Where are the democracies brought by jac booted thugs? We're is the success in "controlling" terrorism? We keep killing and the illing prompts more killing. It is clear from all available evidence that we are not gaining ground, we are not driving solution. All we're doing is keeping the conflict alive and playing to the propaganda of terrorists.

    People want to talk about how we're justified in our intervention because they've killed our friends and families. But we're doing the same, which would mean that they would be justified in their attacks against us using the same logic. And by engaging in it, you engage only in the never ending cycle of violence. Monkey behavior will never promote humanity.
    You could change a couple words and write that exact same thing about Japan, in like 1942. So that tells you that the situation is a little more complex than what you're suggesting.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    You could change a couple words and write that exact same thing about Japan, in like 1942. So that tells you that the situation is a little more complex than what you're suggesting.
    The situation with the Japanese was indeed different. It was a united people in actual war and they were forced to admit defeat. It's slightly easier to force these forms of changes in a full and declared war. When practicing imperialism it becomes all the more difficult. We didn't fight Japan for over a decade for no gain.

  6. #286
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The situation with the Japanese was indeed different. It was a united people in actual war and they were forced to admit defeat. It's slightly easier to force these forms of changes in a full and declared war. When practicing imperialism it becomes all the more difficult. We didn't fight Japan for over a decade for no gain.
    So you do agree that things aren't as simplistic as the post I quoted suggests?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's what is necessary to evolve. Monkey games gets us monkey gains, nothing more. Democracy is not brought by a gun and we can ee that with our over 60 years of intervention in the middle East that it has not occurred. When dealing with terrorism and these emotional reactions, it's important to keep in mind consequence and the ability to analyze the data. So over a decade more of direct interventionism and where are we? Where are the democracies brought by jac booted thugs? We're is the success in "controlling" terrorism? We keep killing and the illing prompts more killing. It is clear from all available evidence that we are not gaining ground, we are not driving solution. All we're doing is keeping the conflict alive and playing to the propaganda of terrorists.

    People want to talk about how we're justified in our intervention because they've killed our friends and families. But we're doing the same, which would mean that they would be justified in their attacks against us using the same logic. And by engaging in it, you engage only in the never ending cycle of violence. Monkey behavior will never promote humanity.
    I took the liberty of bolding the part of your quote I wanted to address.

    The shorthand term there you describe is "perpetual war"
    Oṃ maṇi padme hūṃ

  8. #288
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's what is necessary to evolve. Monkey games gets us monkey gains, nothing more. Democracy is not brought by a gun and we can ee that with our over 60 years of intervention in the middle East that it has not occurred. When dealing with terrorism and these emotional reactions, it's important to keep in mind consequence and the ability to analyze the data. So over a decade more of direct interventionism and where are we? Where are the democracies brought by jac booted thugs? We're is the success in "controlling" terrorism? We keep killing and the illing prompts more killing. It is clear from all available evidence that we are not gaining ground, we are not driving solution. All we're doing is keeping the conflict alive and playing to the propaganda of terrorists.

    People want to talk about how we're justified in our intervention because they've killed our friends and families. But we're doing the same, which would mean that they would be justified in their attacks against us using the same logic. And by engaging in it, you engage only in the never ending cycle of violence. Monkey behavior will never promote humanity.
    Rather than discussing what we need to do for our collective ethical evolution I think it makes more sense to promote the systems, actions, and values that have brought about the hitherto unheard of level of peace that predominates in the world today. Historically I think this has been found in democracy promotion, the warding off of organized leagues of autocracies, and the suppression of threatening ideologies. Strong military, political, and economic involvement is required to effect these aims.

    Quite frankly we have not expended much effort in the Middle East in this direction until very recently. Our involvement over much of the 20th Century was rooted in the laudable but unfortunately necessary goal of countering the influence of the Soviet Union and preventing a bastion from emerging in the region. I'm an unabashed consequentialist, sometimes a loftier goal has to be subordinated to the necessary one, and in pursuit of that necessary one different course of action can be justified. That being said our actual involvement in the Middle East has been relatively peripheral aside from a few exceptional instances as opposed to other battle grounds of the Cold War. It's time for a shift towards supporting popular will, liberalism, and democracy regardless of the consequences (though this does not preclude or ability to react to negative activities of the new government).

    Shifting to terrorism I'm not sure what to say. It is a platitude to say that killing prompts more killing, even though it sounds attractive to some ears. At the end of the day we are talking about a global war with multiple highly individual battlegrounds. In some places like Saudi Arabia and Jordan the threat from Islamist militants and al-Qaeda has almost completely subsided, in others like Iraq success was in sight but things have relapsed, in others still like Afghanistan and Pakistan the security situation is so dismal that it is impossible to arrest the growth of the militant groups. To say that less military activity or a different tact would solve these situations is to blithely ignore the reality of the situation as it would result in the mushrooming of these forces.

  9. #289
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Rather than discussing what we need to do for our collective ethical evolution I think it makes more sense to promote the systems, actions, and values that have brought about the hitherto unheard of level of peace that predominates in the world today. Historically I think this has been found in democracy promotion, the warding off of organized leagues of autocracies, and the suppression of threatening ideologies. Strong military, political, and economic involvement is required to effect these aims.

    Quite frankly we have not expended much effort in the Middle East in this direction until very recently. Our involvement over much of the 20th Century was rooted in the laudable but unfortunately necessary goal of countering the influence of the Soviet Union and preventing a bastion from emerging in the region. I'm an unabashed consequentialist, sometimes a loftier goal has to be subordinated to the necessary one, and in pursuit of that necessary one different course of action can be justified. That being said our actual involvement in the Middle East has been relatively peripheral aside from a few exceptional instances as opposed to other battle grounds of the Cold War. It's time for a shift towards supporting popular will, liberalism, and democracy regardless of the consequences (though this does not preclude or ability to react to negative activities of the new government).

    Shifting to terrorism I'm not sure what to say. It is a platitude to say that killing prompts more killing, even though it sounds attractive to some ears. At the end of the day we are talking about a global war with multiple highly individual battlegrounds. In some places like Saudi Arabia and Jordan the threat from Islamist militants and al-Qaeda has almost completely subsided, in others like Iraq success was in sight but things have relapsed, in others still like Afghanistan and Pakistan the security situation is so dismal that it is impossible to arrest the growth of the militant groups. To say that less military activity or a different tact would solve these situations is to blithely ignore the reality of the situation as it would result in the mushrooming of these forces.
    It may be platitude but apparently needs stating. In over a decade all you've managed to do is double down on our 9/11 losses, nearly bankrupt American, and decrease our overall freedom. These are not good things and they must be realized. Fighting for your future may be necessary and worthwhile; but fighting for stagnation breeds only death.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #290
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It may be platitude but apparently needs stating. In over a decade all you've managed to do is double down on our 9/11 losses, nearly bankrupt American, and decrease our overall freedom. These are not good things and they must be realized. Fighting for your future may be necessary and worthwhile; but fighting for stagnation breeds only death.
    That's just more platitudes, actually.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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