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Thread: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

  1. #271
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    It's not black and white. We aren't some knight in shining armor. We're there for our interests, not theirs. You can't force a people to take on your societal ideology, no matter how hard you try. They will just resent you for generations. The U.S. and its European allies are fighting to install their resource systems long enough to get what they want. This has never been about bringing permanent peace to the Middle East because you can't bring peace at the butt of a rifle.
    you praising Afghanistan as a democracy then making this argument is a little more than ironic


    Can you respond to the rest of my post now? Jesus. What's the point of writing all that if you're going to hone in on one insignificant detail while ignoring the rest?
    Well, telling people "to pick up a history book" and lacking basic knowledge on the very points yiou are trying to lecture on, will have people pointing those mistakes out to you. Second, he probably figured the rest of the content was already addressed, with the various other posts pointing out the various other similar mistakes you made...

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    you praising Afghanistan as a democracy then making this argument is a little more than ironic
    No, it's not. No one has addressed why we have the right to be there or why our intervention is not just a rehash of old colonial behaviors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Well, telling people "to pick up a history book" and lacking basic knowledge on the very points yiou are trying to lecture on, will have people pointing those mistakes out to you. Second, he probably figured the rest of the content was already addressed, with the various other posts pointing out the various other similar mistakes you made...
    See above. We have no business bombing all these countries in the Middle East. We're there for our own interests, not to bring a "peace" that will never happen there. The only thing we can hope to do is maintain fragile stability until we get what we want, and then it will all fall apart again. This is about challenging OPEC and spreading our socioeconomic way of life, a.k.a imperialism. If you want to talk about ironies, the irony is that our western economic way of life is clearly on its way out as our middle class is destroyed and power shifts from democracy back to aristocracy and private hands. Yet people still swallow the gall about spreading democracy. L-M-A-O

    People have such blinders on when it comes to these issues. The American propaganda machine has done such a number on their ignorant minds. Take a hard look at who is really waging these wars and stop believing everything the corporate media machine tells you.

  3. #273
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    It's not black and white. We aren't some knight in shining armor. We're there for our interests, not theirs.
    It's more than a little ironic that you say it's not black and white and then decide that the West is somehow 'bad'.

    You can't force a people to take on your societal ideology, no matter how hard you try.
    Is that why people all over the world wear suits and whatnot? Is that why most of the world adheres to economic liberalism?

    The U.S. and its European allies are fighting to install their resource systems long enough to get what they want. This has never been about bringing permanent peace to the Middle East because you can't bring peace at the butt of a rifle.
    Well, yeah you can, but that's beside the point: why do you think other people think it's about permanent peace? Do you think people can only support nations pursuing their interests if the interest is to bring permanent peace? I feel as if you think you're telling people something they don't know, and if they only knew what you did, they would suddenly not want West to try to pursue its interests.

    It's not just America it's the western bloc. We're engaging in the same kind of colonial BS that we always have, just under the new guise of globalization and "regional security". They didn't attack us because we were globalizing. READ A BOOK. Europe and the U.S. just can't help themselves.
    lol I have a Master's in International Relations. What book do you suggest I read?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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  4. #274
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I support Azerbaijan for political reasons, at this stage I also think they have the stronger moral argument. That being said I do not see how peaceful integration will ever feasibly occur. Azerbaijan, and the Aliyev clan in particular, have used Nagorno as a patriotic distraction for years. The ferocity of feeling about it is greater I think even than over the Israeli-Palestinian issue. If Azeri's took hold of Nagorno they would slaughter the Armenians. The only dimly plausible solution is permanent regional autonomy for Nagorno with formal re-integration into Azerbaijan. That will only be possible when Azerbaijan is a true democratic power and a much more equitable society.
    Peaceful integration?

    They are a sovereign state and are under no obligation to integrate with anyone. This is what I'm talking about... the western bloc still envisions itself as the bringer of world order according to its own ideals of civilization. We don't even bother to declare war anymore, we just fashion our foreign policies under the guise of "interventions" and saving foreign states from themselves. How many countries are we in now? We're even in Africa now.

    Since declaring war is no longer fashionable to most people, we simply blame problems on non-state actors and then "intervene".

    The imperialism has to stop.

  5. #275
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    It's more than a little ironic that you say it's not black and white and then decide that the West is somehow 'bad'.
    Bad is such an imprecise terminology, and I never used it. Pointing out the ills of our political and cultural way of treating the rest of the world is hardly a fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Is that why people all over the world wear suits and whatnot? Is that why most of the world adheres to economic liberalism?
    Is there a point to your questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Well, yeah you can, but that's beside the point: why do you think other people think it's about permanent peace? Do you think people can only support nations pursuing their interests if the interest is to bring permanent peace? I feel as if you think you're telling people something they don't know, and if they only knew what you did, they would suddenly not want West to try to pursue its interests.
    This is an old argument. Nations have interfaced economically for millennia without even sharing the same world values. In the modern world, look at a country like China. It's becoming an economic powerhouse and it's at war with no one. The difference between them and us is that we have European colonial roots combined with our manifest destiny view that the world should be like us. Our international standing is in the gutter because war hawks, interventionists, and the financial elite have alienated us from all our key allies, and because we are increasingly treating our OWN people just as badly as we treat the people of other nations.

    Don't kid yourself. Globalization is westernization, and it's about consolidating the power of the western aristocracy. Always has been. It started with the British Empire and mercantilism, and the U.S. is finishing the job with corporate capitalism.

    If you have something that we want and you don't give it up willingly, we'll invade you and "bring democracy" to your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    lol I have a Master's in International Relations. What book do you suggest I read?
    Good for you.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    And this is what I'm talking about:

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    We have no business bombing all these countries in the Middle East. We're there for our own interests, not to bring a "peace" that will never happen there.
    The first and second sentences have no relation with each other. Whether or not the West has business there has nothing to do with bringing peace, unless you think the only "business" someone could have is to "bring peace". Just because that's what you think doesn't mean it's what other people think. But here, again, you exhibit that ostensibly can't even imagine or fathom that someone could not share your point of view:

    People have such blinders on when it comes to these issues. The American propaganda machine has done such a number on their ignorant minds. Take a hard look at who is really waging these wars and stop believing everything the corporate media machine tells you.
    The only reason people could disagree with you, you seem to imply, is because they don't know what you know. Since you're big on books, here's one for you: Being Wrong: Adventures in the Margin of Error: Kathryn Schulz: 9780061176050: Amazon.com: Books. In it, the author describes the stages of how most people deal with folks that disagree with them. First, they assume they're ignorant. If only they knew what you knew, they'd agree with you. If you inform them, or find out they're informed, the next step is to assume they're stupid; they're just incapable of getting it. If, however, the person proves themselves to be clever or intelligent in other ways, the last resort is to claim they're evil. They're morally broken. That way, people are able to hold on to some level of superiority. I wonder where you'll put people here they've shown you that they're not ignorant. I wonder if you'll figure out there's a fourth option.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Bad is such an imprecise terminology, and I never used it. Pointing out the ills of our political and cultural way of treating the rest of the world is hardly a fallacy.
    So, after saying it's not black and white, you fall into a very monochromatic way of thinking. Interesting.

    Is there a point to your questions?
    To show you that, yes, you can 'force' people to take on a societal ideology, so your point is wrong.

    This is an old argument. Nations have interfaced economically for millennia without even sharing the same world values. In the modern world, look at a country like China. It's becoming an economic powerhouse and it's at war with no one. The difference between them and us is that we have European colonial roots combined with our manifest destiny view that the world should be like us. Our international standing is in the gutter because war hawks, interventionists, and the financial elite have alienated us from all our key allies, and because we are increasingly treating our OWN people just as badly as we treat the people of other nations.

    Don't kid yourself. Globalization is westernization, and it's about consolidating the power of the western aristocracy. Always has been. It started with the British Empire and mercantilism, and the U.S. is finishing the job with corporate capitalism.

    If you have something that we want and you don't give it up willingly, we'll invade you and "bring democracy" to your country.
    This has nothing to do with what I said. You're saying "Wake up! It's not about bringing peace! It's about self-interest! If you knew that, you wouldn't support it!" and I'm telling you "Yeah, I know. I understand and support nation-states working out of self-interest." Now what?

    Good for you.
    I thought you told me to read a book. Which book or books will educate me as you so clearly have been educated? Guide me, Northern Light.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    No, it's not. No one has addressed why we have the right to be there or why our intervention is not just a rehash of old colonial behaviors.
    It highlights you don't really have an understanding of the region, it's history, and what caused the civil war, like the majority of your previous posts. So why not take your advice and crack open a book

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Peaceful integration?

    They are a sovereign state and are under no obligation to integrate with anyone. This is what I'm talking about... the western bloc still envisions itself as the bringer of world order according to its own ideals of civilization. We don't even bother to declare war anymore, we just fashion our foreign policies under the guise of "interventions" and saving foreign states from themselves. How many countries are we in now? We're even in Africa now.

    Since declaring war is no longer fashionable to most people, we simply blame problems on non-state actors and then "intervene".

    The imperialism has to stop.
    google Nagorno. It's a defacto autonomous region in the area that has long lingering tensions with Azerbaijan

  10. #280
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Can you respond to the rest of my post now? Jesus. What's the point of writing all that if you're going to hone in on one insignificant detail while ignoring the rest?
    Because it was glaringly inaccurate and others had already provided an effective response. If you acknowledge you were incorrect I'll let the matter rest.

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