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Thread: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

  1. #261
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Ah, masochism mixed with a little bit of conspiracy. The reason these people feel the need to blow up UN buildings, beat women, behead journalists, and fly planes into skyscrapers, is because of us and our behavior towards the Muslim world. Never mind the fact that we hadn't been waging in any Muslim country unilaterally and without provocation since the 1950s. Never mind the fact that we saved two separate Muslim populations from systematic deportation and murder in what was Yugoslavia. Never mind the fact that our policy has been to aid in development and eliminate ethnic and sectarian differences, while at the same time giving people their first ever open democratic elections. And never mind the fact that violence in the Muslim world has largely been occurring separately from the United States' foreign policy, and the perpetrators have sometimes even been aided by it.
    You're ignoring all the proxy wars we have fought using their people. Just because we didn't officially declare war doesn't mean we weren't playing chess with their people.

    It's not about Muslims and never has been. Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day and they were content to keep it confined to their regional squabbles until we and the Soviets decided we could put them to better use.

    Afghanistan was a democracy and Iran had the potential to be such. Too bad the CIA got involved. Claiming that's a conspiracy is just another way of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la" because you don't want to hear about what your country is responsible for.

    We created the very enemies that are attacking us. It has nothing to do with who is Muslim and who isn't. Azerbejan is a thriving Muslim democracy and they have no problem with us, and that's because we never played proxy war with their people. Every country that has an axe to grind with us has been wronged by us in the past, and now we're wronging them again by letting our military-industrial complex bomb the **** out of their civilizations. The multi-generational hatred will never stop now.

    Pick up a history book and wake the hell up.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    But that's exactly what you're arguing. You seem to think that these psychopaths and sadists and fanatics in Yemen, Pakistan, and elsewhere won't be a threat to us as long as we stop being so mean to them.
    Not at all. Terrorists can be a threat and there will always be nut jobs. These are low probability events that given enough time will be realized; yetlow probability none the less. However, what I say and what is missed perhaps with some of the emotional blood thirsty is that actions have consequences and if you want to make an intelligent and coherent response you must consider those consequences.

    Nothing disappears until we collectively as a species make a choice to not engage in certain behavior. But if we act on a way that only perpetuates violence and feeds into terrorist propaganda, then we do nothing but condemn future generations to the same damned fight.

    The high road is a hard row to hoe, many will not accept the consequences of moral superiority. But nothing stops until we stop. It's a basic truth.
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  3. #263
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    It's not about Muslims and never has been. Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day and they were content to keep it confined to their regional squabbles until we and the Soviets decided we could put them to better use.
    1) Islam didn't even exist in Alexander's day

    2)there have been a number of Islamic empires throughout history, with two recent examples being the Mughal and ottoman Empires

    Afghanistan was a democracy and Iran had the potential to be such. Too bad the CIA got involved. Claiming that's a conspiracy is just another way of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la" because you don't want to hear about what your country is responsible for.
    From my understanding Afghanistan was always a country with a weak and decentralized govt, and much of the issues that lead to us involvement and the soviet invasion were homegrown and stemmed from rural resistance to urban policies meant to increase federal organization
    Last edited by Dr. Chuckles; 11-01-13 at 09:57 PM.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    It's not about Muslims and never has been. Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day and they were content to keep it confined to their regional squabbles until we and the Soviets decided we could put them to better use.
    So your contention is that "Muslims"- as if they're all the same- were "content to keep it confined" for centuries but then, coincidentally around the same time the world becomes globalized via transportation and technology, American policies compel them to spread their wars beyond the Muslim world?

    We created the very enemies that are attacking us. It has nothing to do with who is Muslim and who isn't. Azerbejan is a thriving Muslim democracy and they have no problem with us, and that's because we never played proxy war with their people. Every country that has an axe to grind with us has been wronged by us in the past, and now we're wronging them again by letting our military-industrial complex bomb the **** out of their civilizations. The multi-generational hatred will never stop now.
    That's so incredibly self-centered, I don't know where to start. The world doesn't revolve around American policies.
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    You're ignoring all the proxy wars we have fought using their people. Just because we didn't officially declare war doesn't mean we weren't playing chess with their people.
    Our support of dictators in the Islamic world was despicable, but it's not as if we were launching an indiscriminate war of aggression against them and then were falsely outraged when they took it back to us - we were utilizing existing conflicts to advance our own interests. Furthermore, we've made significant progress in reversing the destruction that was visited upon the Islamic world in the past half century, so that is a moot point by now.
    Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day
    Muslim tribes didn't exist in Alexander the Great's day.
    Afghanistan was a democracy and Iran had the potential to be such. Too bad the CIA got involved.
    A communist puppet state is hardly a democracy, and Mossadegh would have likely become a dictator himself.
    Claiming that's a conspiracy is just another way of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la" because you don't want to hear about what your country is responsible for.
    Being a veteran of the pacifist left, I'm more than happy to criticize what my country has done - indeed, in regards to our Cold War policy in Latin America and Indochina, I still do. However, I also call out dishonest exaggerations when I see them.
    Azerbejan is a thriving Muslim democracy and they have no problem with us, and that's because we never played proxy war with their people.
    Ever heard of Karabakh?
    Every country that has an axe to grind with us has been wronged by us in the past, and now we're wronging them again by letting our military-industrial complex bomb the **** out of their civilizations. The multi-generational hatred will never stop now.
    The Vietnamese, Cambodians, Chileans, East Timorese, Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Guatemalans, and Cypriots all would have a legitimate gripe against us, but the Muslim world doesn't. Our actions towards Arabs and Persians simply have never been aggressive enough to warrant their response.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    You're ignoring all the proxy wars we have fought using their people. Just because we didn't officially declare war doesn't mean we weren't playing chess with their people.

    It's not about Muslims and never has been. Muslim tribes have been warring with each other since Alexander the Great's day and they were content to keep it confined to their regional squabbles until we and the Soviets decided we could put them to better use.

    Afghanistan was a democracy and Iran had the potential to be such. Too bad the CIA got involved. Claiming that's a conspiracy is just another way of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la" because you don't want to hear about what your country is responsible for.

    We created the very enemies that are attacking us. It has nothing to do with who is Muslim and who isn't. Azerbejan is a thriving Muslim democracy and they have no problem with us, and that's because we never played proxy war with their people. Every country that has an axe to grind with us has been wronged by us in the past, and now we're wronging them again by letting our military-industrial complex bomb the **** out of their civilizations. The multi-generational hatred will never stop now.

    Pick up a history book and wake the hell up.
    What.... what are you talking about? Azerbaijan is an insanely autocratic country with a vicious personality cult around the Aliyev family. I've never been to a more corrupt and authoritarian country. It's the only place I can think of where you literally have secret police follow you around for the duration of your stay if you are doing any business whatsoever there. They are friendly with us because Russia is to their north, Iran is to their south, and Western energy markets are to their West.

  7. #267
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not at all. Terrorists can be a threat and there will always be nut jobs. These are low probability events that given enough time will be realized; yetlow probability none the less. However, what I say and what is missed perhaps with some of the emotional blood thirsty is that actions have consequences and if you want to make an intelligent and coherent response you must consider those consequences.

    Nothing disappears until we collectively as a species make a choice to not engage in certain behavior. But if we act on a way that only perpetuates violence and feeds into terrorist propaganda, then we do nothing but condemn future generations to the same damned fight.

    The high road is a hard row to hoe, many will not accept the consequences of moral superiority. But nothing stops until we stop. It's a basic truth.
    When have we ever done this? I do not think we have ever 'collectively as a species' made a decision about anything. Modern morality, civilizational standards, and societal norms are the result of hard fought victories over the preceding several hundred years. The shift towards inhibiting international conflict, promoting democratic self-rule, and recognizing humanitarian atrocities did not result from a collective human decision. They resulted from the crucible of violence that the Western democracies fought in and the order we managed to forge.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What.... what are you talking about? Azerbaijan is an insanely autocratic country with a vicious personality cult around the Aliyev family. I've never been to a more corrupt and authoritarian country. It's the only place I can think of where you literally have secret police follow you around for the duration of your stay if you are doing any business whatsoever there. They are friendly with us because Russia is to their north, Iran is to their south, and Western energy markets are to their West.
    What's your take on the Karabakh issue?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    What's your take on the Karabakh issue?
    I support Azerbaijan for political reasons, at this stage I also think they have the stronger moral argument. That being said I do not see how peaceful integration will ever feasibly occur. Azerbaijan, and the Aliyev clan in particular, have used Nagorno as a patriotic distraction for years. The ferocity of feeling about it is greater I think even than over the Israeli-Palestinian issue. If Azeri's took hold of Nagorno they would slaughter the Armenians. The only dimly plausible solution is permanent regional autonomy for Nagorno with formal re-integration into Azerbaijan. That will only be possible when Azerbaijan is a true democratic power and a much more equitable society.

  10. #270
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib
    Our support of dictators in the Islamic world was despicable, but it's not as if we were launching an indiscriminate war of aggression against them and then were falsely outraged when they took it back to us - we were utilizing existing conflicts to advance our own interests. Furthermore, we've made significant progress in reversing the destruction that was visited upon the Islamic world in the past half century, so that is a moot point by now.
    I never denied that the region had its own conflicts before we arrived. That doesn't change that what we're doing there now - bombing them, destroying their governments (some of which we helped to create), fulfilling "security" arrangements of Europe and especially Israel, creating infrastructure and economic contracts that use all of OUR corporations and people, and essentially engaging in the same old colonial BS that the west has always done - is unacceptable.

    It's not black and white. We aren't some knight in shining armor. We're there for our interests, not theirs. You can't force a people to take on your societal ideology, no matter how hard you try. They will just resent you for generations. The U.S. and its European allies are fighting to install their resource systems long enough to get what they want. This has never been about bringing permanent peace to the Middle East because you can't bring peace at the butt of a rifle.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder
    So your contention is that "Muslims"- as if they're all the same- were "content to keep it confined" for centuries but then, coincidentally around the same time the world becomes globalized via transportation and technology, American policies compel them to spread their wars beyond the Muslim world?
    It's not just America it's the western bloc. We're engaging in the same kind of colonial BS that we always have, just under the new guise of globalization and "regional security". They didn't attack us because we were globalizing. READ A BOOK. Europe and the U.S. just can't help themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What.... what are you talking about? Azerbaijan is an insanely autocratic country with a vicious personality cult around the Aliyev family. I've never been to a more corrupt and authoritarian country. It's the only place I can think of where you literally have secret police follow you around for the duration of your stay if you are doing any business whatsoever there. They are friendly with us because Russia is to their north, Iran is to their south, and Western energy markets are to their West.
    Can you respond to the rest of my post now? Jesus. What's the point of writing all that if you're going to hone in on one insignificant detail while ignoring the rest?

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