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Thread: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

  1. #251
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I think this part bears repeating. That said- and it's VERY important to have that said- we can still be dubious about the claims of civilians vs militants. Still, it's a very good ratio and better than what consistent operations of other types would produce, while those other operations also increased the risk of coalition deaths.



    This, too, bears mentioning again. You can't say that American attacks somehow disengender the population to Americans while ignoring that Taliban attacks can likewise disengender the population to the Taliban, and at a much higher rate. To ignore one for the other is just pushing an agenda.
    The Pakistani govt often comes off as schizophrenic in it's approuch to these issues because it's playing a number of angles and is often heavily divided among various competing bodies, with disparate goals and objectives. And I am sure a number of those divisions recognize the value of the drone program in dealing with various internal threats. And it's not like they have taken any hard measures to end the program, which would simply consist of actively attempting to shoot them down.

  2. #252
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    The Pakistani govt often comes off as schizophrenic in it's approuch to these issues because it's playing a number of angles and is often heavily divided among various competing bodies, with disparate goals and objectives. And I am sure a number of those divisions recognize the value of the drone program in dealing with various internal threats. And it's not like they have taken any hard measures to end the program, which would simply consist of actively attempting to shoot them down.
    I wonder how we'd respond to our drones being shot down. It is technically an attack on our military, but isn't something that could do any harm to our troops or our civilians.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  3. #253
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    The Pakistani govt often comes off as schizophrenic in it's approuch to these issues because it's playing a number of angles and is often heavily divided among various competing bodies, with disparate goals and objectives. And I am sure a number of those divisions recognize the value of the drone program in dealing with various internal threats. And it's not like they have taken any hard measures to end the program, which would simply consist of actively attempting to shoot them down.
    You're right, of course, but the rhetoric they put out towards the masses- which I think this/these report/reports would mostly qualify as- is generally anti-American. Of course, I can see why they'd like to appear that way, I'm not judging them for it, for that is how it normally is.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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  4. #254
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    You're right, of course, but the rhetoric they put out towards the masses- which I think this/these report/reports would mostly qualify as- is generally anti-American. Of course, I can see why they'd like to appear that way, I'm not judging them for it, for that is how it normally is.
    Yeah, I think the protests are simply for mass consumption and take this type of report as an attempt to soften the public view of the program. But as I mentioned above, it's really hard to get a fix on what the Pakistanis are actually doing. Being that the govt hardly acts as a united front

  5. #255
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Thanks for the post, a cut above much of the nonsense usually posted here.

    I like the distinction between counterinsurgency and counterterrorism- I've found it's something a lot of people don't understand and use interchangeably. However, I disagree that it was attempted and didn't work in Iraq. I feel strongly that a huge reason why Iraq went to **** was precisely because the Bush Administration didn't understand anything about either counterinsurgency OR counterterrorism and simply focused on the traditional concepts of invasion and the deposition of Iraqi government. Of course, later Bush saw his mistake and tried to rectify it, but the genie was already out of the bottle.

    I also disagree that Afghanistan got much "worse". It's been a ****ty place for over 30 years now. The US invasion didn't really change much there. The Taliban had only "won" ~5 or so years previous to the American invasion and even then the Northern Alliance ruled a third of the country, with skirmishes on their "borders". And the US "touched" Mindanao and it's better now than then.
    thanks for the thoughtful response. By "worse" (AfPak) i should have said worthLESS - meaning our long endeavor there.

    Odds are pretty good the place will revert to it's own feudal ways once we stop propping up this fictional Afgan National Forces -in itself an oxymoron,
    as you rightly point out there really isn't any latent nationalism there.

    Iraq DOES have a nationalist character - and our emphasis on "nationbuilding" was a correct effort; albeit a bad mistake to invade.

    If we hadn't dissolved the Iraqi Army, and been so busy tearing out the Iraqi gov't -maybe a counterinsurgency strategy might have worked. Maybe...
    Thing is. I kinna think only a dictator lke Saddam couild hold that place togther, as it's coming apart at the seams now, but it's a valid debate point
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  6. #256
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The intellectual dishonesty of your argument is your false dichotomy where you pretend it's either violence or nothing.
    But that's exactly what you're arguing. You seem to think that these psychopaths and sadists and fanatics in Yemen, Pakistan, and elsewhere won't be a threat to us as long as we stop being so mean to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  7. #257
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    But that's exactly what you're arguing. You seem to think that these psychopaths and sadists and fanatics in Yemen, Pakistan, and elsewhere won't be a threat to us as long as we stop being so mean to them.
    I sense a little Hitchens in that line.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I sense a little Hitchens in that line.
    I always thought having hitchens tell you to go **** yourself would have been a wonderful experiance

  9. #259
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The only one waging war here is the United States. We started this "intervention", because our military-industrial complex demanded it. We are a warring nation whose government, economic expansion, and culture are all predicated upon conflict. If there's no conflict then the U.S. can't function in the world; our vast empire of bases in most countries and military treaties become redundant.

    The entire domino effect of Muslim countries growing to hate us is because we started killing them first, not the other way around. We have more wars than ever right now because of the U.S. Even if we go back to the pre-text for all this war on terrorism, we find that 9/11 was caused by people that we trained.

    If you want wars to end then you need to stop waging them. It's that simple. We weren't just targeted by terrorists in vacuo, we committed real atrocities against their societies over the course of decades, and we're STILL doing it now. The massive wars being fought right now were started by us. It's about our corporate interests, our natural resources, our socioeconomic way of life and colonization of other countries with our manifest destiny, and our ridiculous two-faced foreign policy. Don't delude yourself.

    The war on terror and all our campaigns in the Middle East are based on damned lies.
    Ah, masochism mixed with a little bit of conspiracy. The reason these people feel the need to blow up UN buildings, beat women, behead journalists, and fly planes into skyscrapers, is because of us and our behavior towards the Muslim world. Never mind the fact that we hadn't been waging in any Muslim country unilaterally and without provocation since the 1950s. Never mind the fact that we saved two separate Muslim populations from systematic deportation and murder in what was Yugoslavia. Never mind the fact that our policy has been to aid in development and eliminate ethnic and sectarian differences, while at the same time giving people their first ever open democratic elections. And never mind the fact that violence in the Muslim world has largely been occurring separately from the United States' foreign policy, and the perpetrators have sometimes even been aided by it.
    Last edited by MadLib; 11-01-13 at 08:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  10. #260
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I sense a little Hitchens in that line.
    Haha, I've been reading his articles and watching his Youtube videos for a while now. I like his writing style, and I think it's been influencing mine a little bit
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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