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Thread: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    So then no. You can't articulate what problems you're talking about nor why you think bombing people will solve them. I'm not surprised.
    No, I was actually pointing out that you premise was laughably over simplified and didn't even raise to the level of being worth a real response.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And you don't have a problem with "relations" including murder?
    No it this is how you're defining it, no.

    That's what we're talking about.
    Well, we're talking about an armed conflict. Is that murder? Okay, if you think so, then yeah, I'm okay with it.

    Whether or not the United States ought to be killing citizens of other nations.
    Sure, sometimes.

    There are supposedly "real problems" that we are solving with these bombings. I'd like to know what they are, and why we think that killing will solve them.
    The problem of those people attacking the US or US interests. Those people will not. Cannot.
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    nothing of substance, just basic hate
    welcome to partisan politics ...

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    The problem of those people attacking the US or US interests. Those people will not. Cannot.
    Who are "those people"? The specific people killed by these bombings? The point of the thread is that a lot of people who aren't attacking anything are being killed by them. How that anything besides cold blooded murder?
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Who are "those people"? The specific people killed by these bombings?
    Yes.

    The point of the thread is that a lot of people who aren't attacking anything are being killed by them. How that anything besides cold blooded murder?
    Well, because they're not being targeted, it'd only be manslaughter, for one.
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Who are "those people"? The specific people killed by these bombings? The point of the thread is that a lot of people who aren't attacking anything are being killed by them. How that anything besides cold blooded murder?
    no, the ones targeted in those bombings, and it's called collateral damage and is accepted under the laws of war. Again, this prevents the use of human shields becoming an even greater issue

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    According to this article were 2,160 militants and 67 civilians killed in Drone attacks in Pakistan.

    From this article:


    Drone Deaths: 3 Percent Of People Killed By U.S. Strikes Since 2008 Were Civilians, Pakistan Reports
    That's a pretty good ratio, I'd say, especially when taking into account the fact that the Taliban has killed ten times that number in Pakistan.
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    That's a pretty good ratio, I'd say, especially when taking into account the fact that the Taliban has killed ten times that number in Pakistan.

    As a supporter of the drone program I'm pretty skeptical that we are that accurate with our bombings and it would be interesting to see how "militant" is being defined here

    edit: it's the pakistani govt. Not exactly the paragon of disinterest or transparency here.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    As a supporter of the drone program I'm pretty skeptical that we are that accurate with our bombings and it would be interesting to see how "militant" is being defined here
    It would be good to set parameters like that, and I wouldn't be surprised if the actual ratio was a little higher. Nonetheless, the drone program is obviously the best option we have when a large number of terrorists are hiding in countries that do not officially condone their presence. I think that it's somewhat hypocritical to argue that Yemenis and Pakistanis don't notice the heaps of civilians that terrorists have killed in their own countries, but that they do notice the proportionately much smaller number of civilians that are accidentally killed via US drone strikes. Similarly, it's unlikely that those who witness the bombings or are affected by them have no knowledge of why it's happening.

    I'll add that I'm a little less supportive of US drone strikes in Yemen than in Pakistan, since the former has, since 2009, seriously attempted to crack down on al-Qaeda within its own borders while at the same time fighting a Shia insurgency in its northwestern regions. Pakistan, on the other hand, is a covert supporter of anti-American terrorists, and so no one can logically claim that we're infringing on their sovereignty.

    EDIT: If anything, I'd say that the Pakistani government would overestimate the number of civilians killed by drones. Their official position is feigned shock and outrage over US strikes.
    Last edited by MadLib; 11-01-13 at 05:32 PM.
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    EDIT: If anything, I'd say that the Pakistani government would overestimate the number of civilians killed by drones. Their official position is feigned shock and outrage over US strikes.
    I think this part bears repeating. That said- and it's VERY important to have that said- we can still be dubious about the claims of civilians vs militants. Still, it's a very good ratio and better than what consistent operations of other types would produce, while those other operations also increased the risk of coalition deaths.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    I think that it's somewhat hypocritical to argue that Yemenis and Pakistanis don't notice the heaps of civilians that terrorists have killed in their own countries, but that they do notice the proportionately much smaller number of civilians that are accidentally killed via US drone strikes.
    This, too, bears mentioning again. You can't say that American attacks somehow disengender the population to Americans while ignoring that Taliban attacks can likewise disengender the population to the Taliban, and at a much higher rate. To ignore one for the other is just pushing an agenda.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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