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Thread: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups [W:165]

  1. #101
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This is very silly. Obviously you can create a tally of wars that have defined endings and wars that do not, but at the end of the day more conflicts have been concluded than not. Moreover your examples work against you! In Vietnam the application of violence by the North Vietnamese resulted in the defeat of South Vietnam and the restoration of peace in the country. Was it a desired outcome? I'd say not, but it was a definite outcome. Likewise for Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Just as many times if not many more we have prevailed such as in Korea, the Gulf War, etc.

    The simple point is that violence does not simply breed violence, it also often ends violence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What a small minded and isolationist vision. The death of a Briton, an Indian, or a South Korean diminishes me as well. Perhaps not as much as my fellow American, but it stings. I want to build a better world, not construct a Festung America.
    We're not talking about an organized government/country that's attacked another country and declared war and wears uniforms and such.

    This is a totally different monster we're attempting to "fight".

    You can not defeat them as you would defeat a country that's declared war on another country.

    I can't believe you don't get that.

    We'd be better off building schools, libraries, sewer and fresh water systems, and hospitals to fight terrorists, than trying to kill all the terrorists.

  2. #102
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    We're not talking about an organized government/country that's attacked another country and declared war and wears uniforms and such.

    This is a totally different monster we're attempting to "fight".

    You can not defeat them as you would defeat a country that's declared war on another country.

    I can't believe you don't get that.

    We'd be better off building schools, libraries, sewer and fresh water systems, and hospitals to fight terrorists, than trying to kill all the terrorists.
    Ok. Let's loop back to the beginning of this vein of argument which was my contention that "What you're advocating won't stop the cycle, it will merely perpetuate it. Bombs, destruction, and death will breed only further bombs, destruction, and death." is not true on its face. Bombs, destruction, and death routinely end conflict and have been used as tools for bringing about the cessation of hostilities.

    As for fighting the Taliban we are building schools, libraries, sewer and fresh water systems, hospitals, dams, power plants, generator infrastructure, and so much more. None of that matters if you cannot defend the infrastructure or the people using it. Hearts and Minds is the strategy you use once an insurgent group is already defeated to ensure they do not rise again. It never has and never will defeat an enemy on its own struts.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    That is a common refrain but it is almost never true. The greater, or more sophisticated application of violence is more frequently the source of an end to conflict than any other measure.
    This is merely the short termed view of things. Certainly all of our wars haven't stemmed humanity's impulse to kill each other and wars are oft met with future wars. It's not till sides learn they must quit that we actually make progress in controlling the violence. In the best of situations, violence can end future violence. In the majority of cases it causes more. Let's not forget we've been at war for over a decade, killed 10's of thousands of other humans and thousands of ourselves in the process. Not really ending conflict. And in this particular situation, our continued intervention and killing only aids terrorist anti-American propaganda and is used to fuel further recruits.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    This is merely the short termed view of things. Certainly all of our wars haven't stemmed humanity's impulse to kill each other and wars are oft met with future wars. It's not till sides learn they must quit that we actually make progress in controlling the violence. In the best of situations, violence can end future violence. In the majority of cases it causes more. Let's not forget we've been at war for over a decade, killed 10's of thousands of other humans and thousands of ourselves in the process. Not really ending conflict. And in this particular situation, our continued intervention and killing only aids terrorist anti-American propaganda and is used to fuel further recruits.
    If it doesn't end the violence in the future, then obviously someone gave up too soon or didn't do it right.

    10's of thousands of other human beings? Really, I thought over the last 50+ years we mainly only killed muslim extremist/terrorist, their supporters and some socialists. What do they have do do with human beings?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  5. #105
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    This is merely the short termed view of things. Certainly all of our wars haven't stemmed humanity's impulse to kill each other and wars are oft met with future wars. It's not till sides learn they must quit that we actually make progress in controlling the violence. In the best of situations, violence can end future violence. In the majority of cases it causes more. Let's not forget we've been at war for over a decade, killed 10's of thousands of other humans and thousands of ourselves in the process. Not really ending conflict. And in this particular situation, our continued intervention and killing only aids terrorist anti-American propaganda and is used to fuel further recruits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123
    That is a common refrain but it is almost never true. The greater, or more sophisticated application of violence is more frequently the source of an end to conflict than any other measure.
    The only one waging war here is the United States. We started this "intervention", because our military-industrial complex demanded it. We are a warring nation whose government, economic expansion, and culture are all predicated upon conflict. If there's no conflict then the U.S. can't function in the world; our vast empire of bases in most countries and military treaties become redundant.

    The entire domino effect of Muslim countries growing to hate us is because we started killing them first, not the other way around. We have more wars than ever right now because of the U.S. Even if we go back to the pre-text for all this war on terrorism, we find that 9/11 was caused by people that we trained.

    If you want wars to end then you need to stop waging them. It's that simple. We weren't just targeted by terrorists in vacuo, we committed real atrocities against their societies over the course of decades, and we're STILL doing it now. The massive wars being fought right now were started by us. It's about our corporate interests, our natural resources, our socioeconomic way of life and colonization of other countries with our manifest destiny, and our ridiculous two-faced foreign policy. Don't delude yourself.

    The war on terror and all our campaigns in the Middle East are based on damned lies.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    If it doesn't end the violence in the future, then obviously someone gave up too soon or didn't do it right.
    That's an idiotic argument that presumes violence to be the only means to resolve conflict and ignores the pitfalls and consequences of war itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    10's of thousands of other human beings? Really, I thought over the last 50+ years we mainly only killed muslim extremist/terrorist, their supporters and some socialists. What do they have do do with human beings?
    Human is human. The immoral have no position dictating interventionist policies.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    A criminal? We're talking about terrorists that have killed many innocent people and have every intention of continuing. And they are beyond the reach of any police force. If your neighbor is that, then you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sorry, but we've got hundreds to save and you've failed to police your own neighborhood. Too bad, so sad, bye bye.
    How far away do I have to be not to be associated with this terrorist? 50 ft? 100 ft? 100 yards? 1/4 mile? What if he is driving by and I am farming? Is that my fault too?
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I'm not sure what you are referring to. We still have a very large troop contingent in Afghanistan and we never had soldiers in Pakistan. This concerns Afghanistan and Pakistan, not Iraq. Perhaps you confused that?
    The troop surges have a direct effect on the ability of enemies to operate. How is his confusing? I brought Iraq in as a counter point.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    In the 20th century, led by Wilsonianism, many Westerners started to believe that the only acceptable purpose of war would be to stop further war. That's the mindset that many people go into state-sponsored violence embracing.

    Other people see state-sponsored violence as what Clauswitz called "politics by other means": a way for nation-states to exert their influence and further their interests.

    If both sides don't recognize these fundamental differences in how other people see things, lots of parts of these kinds of discussions are entirely fruitless.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  10. #110
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    Re: Drone strikes killing more civilians than U.S. admits - human rights groups say

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    How far away do I have to be not to be associated with this terrorist? 50 ft? 100 ft? 100 yards? 1/4 mile?
    What if he is driving by and I am farming? Is that my fault too?



    How about if I just let you figure that out for yourself?

    If you get blown away by the same missile that kills a terrorist you probably were hanging out with the wrong people.

    You do understand this concept, eh?

    If you hang out with bad guys don't complain when what happens to them affects you.
    Last edited by shrubnose; 11-01-13 at 08:43 AM.

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