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School shooting this morning . . .

ChrisL said:
If 7 rounds were enough, that is all the police would carry too.
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Excellent point. But I think too that the weapon design was equally critical. Those 38 specials with plus-P or the 357's were not enough stopping power. And at that time Glock became a viable company, Baretta was manufacturing a ton of the 92's, , Taurus came out with the 99 FP (I have one of those, actually) etc. and it made sense to move to those new designs. I have about 4 or 5 Glocks of different calibers; and a few are only 10 rounds or so. My smaller XD has I think only a 2.5 or 3" barrel and without the extended mag I bet it's only about 8 rounds even though its a staggered design magazine. The tiny XD is only the 9mm parabelum and I really don't think those have much stopping power. Low energy, small wound cavity, small shock cavity, etc. That's why two of my Uzi's are Model 45. WAY more stopping power.
 
ChrisL said:
You are saying all kinds of dumb things, like 7 rounds is going to be enough in every situation unless one can PROVE otherwise. Your argument is ridiculous.
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If you say so, but no one provided anyone using more than seven.

But that really isn't the issue. Are you really defenseless with a gun and seven rounds? Go ahead, tell me you are with a straight face.

Tomorrow.
 
Snappo said:
This is probably before your time but there was this really famous guy named Mas Ayoob that wrote in all the gun mags I used to read before the Internet became viable. He used FBI study data to figure out what it took for a "one shot stop". The theory was that some caliber had to have been better at dropping a bad guy with a single shot than others. What he came up with was that the 10mm was the best at one-shot stops; and the best placement was the pelvic region. But I kind of remember the one-shot stops only being like 25% of the time and these were trained FBI shooters.. So I'm going to say 3 or 4 rounds in an assailant is a better number. IMHO of course. So three or four assailants I would think you want a 1911 and you want to get behind a table that's on it's side, behind a corner doorway, that sort of thing. Pick off a target, reload, reposition, and re-acquire the next target. Closed quarter battles are down to an art for the US Military and for well trained SWAT teams; but I think the average person is going to spray and pray.
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before my time? LOL I have been a guest instructor in Mas Ayoob's LFI when it was held in SW Ohio.

Evan Marshall found the 357 125 grain JHP was best but that was before there was much data on the 10MM

Oh I used to shoot with the top three FBI guys in our district. They were good shots. They knew the head of my department. I think the HRT sniper said to him-Damn that lawyer is faster than anything we have in the agency. Of course IPSC GMs don't tend to work for the FBI though t

what you say has some merit-I prefer a SW MP over the 1911. I am not a big fan of grip safeties-(which is why lots of IPSC masters have them pinned)

but your one stop data supports my point. and true-being behind cover is definitely the right thing to do whenever it is possible. that's why my son has a heavy duty browning safe in his upstairs room and the top of the stairs (the wife and I are downstairs). it gives him cover that will stop a 30-06 and he can address any problem coming up the stair with that cover in front of him
 
Michael66 said:
Go buy yourself a $3 special off the street and you will have a weapon that's more suitable for protecting yourself than a target rifle. One for every room, one for under your pillow, one for your nose even if you think you will be safer.

And of course you have all those guns loaded and not in a locked safe? I hope you don't have children or have other people's children in your house. If you do then I feel that I should be reporting you to the proper authorities before there's an accident that is going to be attitude adjusting.
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Every weapon I own is legally placed in my house. But if you want to call BATFE and report that you feel all guns must be in a locked safe and that you believe you know someone who does not keep them all locked up, by all means do. Then give this website. When BATFE asks to inspect my home (which actually they would not do - they would ask me to bring my BATFE registry to their most local office), I can give them my FFL number and from that they would have my address. Here in NY I do not have to keep my weapons locked up or un-chambered. I can put my hunting rifles in my truck in the back window if I like, I can put guns in each room and don't have to put them in my little safes, and I can pretty much do whatever I damn well please with them on my property. If I carry off my premises I just have to conceal them. But at any rate- I think you should call Obama, the FBI, the NSA, the BATFE, and the NY State PD to say you know someone who keeps some of his weapons outside of his safes.
 
TurtleDude said:
before my time? LOL I have been a guest instructor in Mas Ayoob's LFI when it was held in SW Ohio.

Evan Marshall found the 357 125 grain JHP was best but that was before there was much data on the 10MM

Oh I used to shoot with the top three FBI guys in our district. They were good shots. They knew the head of my department. I think the HRT sniper said to him-Damn that lawyer is faster than anything we have in the agency. Of course IPSC GMs don't tend to work for the FBI though t

what you say has some merit-I prefer a SW MP over the 1911. I am not a big fan of grip safeties-(which is why lots of IPSC masters have them pinned)

but your one stop data supports my point. and true-being behind cover is definitely the right thing to do whenever it is possible. that's why my son has a heavy duty browning safe in his upstairs room and the top of the stairs (the wife and I are downstairs). it gives him cover that will stop a 30-06 and he can address any problem coming up the stair with that cover in front of him
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Of my modern pistols, I think my M&P 40 might have the worst 3 shot groups. I really dislike it and I don't even bother shooting it anymore.
 
Snappo said:
Of my modern pistols, I think my M&P 40 might have the worst 3 shot groups. I really dislike it and I don't even bother shooting it anymore.
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I pretty well crushed all the instructors with their Glocks on speed drills at the place where I train. The next year they were all carrying SWs. I am a member of the Glock 500 club (my son at 15 cranked out a 498 so he will be in it soon) but I reload and you cannot safely shoot lead bullets in the Glock barrels (true I have Lake Storm or LW aftermarket ones in some of my Glocks) and the trigger reset on the Smith is superior. they aren't bullseye guns though. my most accurate smith is a Davis built model 10 PPC gun.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Seriously, how many crimes are commited with ARs, AKs, M4s and such? Very very few. But they get the headlines when it happens.
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You aren't the first person to ever ask me that, so I actually know the answer. Since the NFA required the tax stamp, 2 shooting have occurred using a Class III legally owned weapon and involving a death. Both times it was a cop that owned it. So that's what - like 90 years and 2 shootings? I love my Class III stuff. Right now I am converting my 1919A4 from 7.62 NATO to 30-06 because I bought 100K rounds of 30-06 at the CMP in Anneston. If not for swapping over, I would probably never shoot it again. With 7.62 NATO I probably chew through maybe $1K a minute, give or take. That's too expensive for having fun, IMHO. When I want to shoot full auto, for the most part I shoot my M11A1 in .380 or my Uzi mini in 9mm.
 
Snappo said:
You aren't the first person to ever ask me that, so I actually know the answer. Since the NFA required the tax stamp, 2 shooting have occurred using a Class III legally owned weapon and involving a death. Both times it was a cop that owned it. So that's what - like 90 years and 2 shootings? I love my Class III stuff. Right now I am converting my 1919A4 from 7.62 NATO to 30-06 because I bought 100K rounds of 30-06 at the CMP in Anneston. If not for swapping over, I would probably never shoot it again. With 7.62 NATO I probably chew through maybe $1K a minute, give or take. That's too expensive for having fun, IMHO. When I want to shoot full auto, for the most part I shoot my M11A1 in .380 or my Uzi mini in 9mm.
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many 2A attorneys including yours truly believes that if HELLER was applied accurately to the odious HUGHES AMENDMENT it would be shot down

it was passed under dubious clouds of legitimacy and probably was in violation of congressional rules

100K of the Greek M2 ball-wow, no wonder the rest of us cannot get any:mrgreen:
 
TurtleDude said:
many 2A attorneys including yours truly believes that if HELLER was applied accurately to the odious HUGHES AMENDMENT it would be shot down

it was passed under dubious clouds of legitimacy and probably was in violation of congressional rules

100K of the Greek M2 ball-wow, no wonder the rest of us cannot get any:mrgreen:
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My Georgia farm is only like 10 minutes from I20, about maybe 40 miles from the Bama border. I try and get up there once every year. Usually I am looking for rare stuff like smith corona 03A3's etc but if I see a really good deal on ammo I totally jump on it. I wanted 100K because I had intended to try and get a table at Knob Creek; but then it turned out you pretty much had to blow the Pope to get a table. So I said screw it. Now I have like 60 huge wooden boxes of ammo still. LOL. Meh - the kids and grandkids can have it, or I can sell it at a nice profit at a gun show.


BTW - I am no longer against the Hughes ammendment. My guns go up in value quite nicely now. I have some full auto Colt A1's and A2's that I paid about $800 for in the mid 80's and I can easily flip them for about $20K each. And I can flip my Uzi's that I got for $1,500 for at least $6K; especially my bolt guns. I have a pair bolts on Form 3 that I had cut for a micro (they are mini bolts) by Vector in Utah (before they were busted for some ammo scam or something) and folks would line up for a bolt that can fit in a mini or a micro.
 
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Snappo said:
My Georgia farm is only like 10 minutes from I20, about maybe 40 miles from the Bama border. I try and get up there once every year. Usually I am looking for rare stuff like smith corona 03A3's etc but if I see a really good deal on ammo I totally jump on it. I wanted 100K because I had intended to try and get a table at Knob Creek; but then it turned out you pretty much had to blow the Pope to get a table. So I said screw it. Now I have like 60 huge wooden boxes of ammo still. LOL. Meh - the kids and grandkids can have it, or I can sell it at a nice profit at a gun show.


BTW - I am no longer against the Hughes ammendment. My guns go up in value quite nicely now. I have some full auto Colt A1's and A2's that I paid about $800 for in the mid 80's and I can easily flip them for about $20K each. And I can flip my Uzi's that I got for $1,500 for at least $6K; especially my bolt guns. I have a pair bolts on Form 3 that I had cut for a micro (they are mini bolts) by Vector in Utah (before they were busted for some ammo scam or something) and folks would line up for a bolt that can fit in a mini or a micro.
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you are not pro gun if you are ok with idiocy like the hughes amendment. I would never do business with anyone who supports that abomination because it made them money. Using that logic you might well support Feinstein's desire to make all Semi auto rifles treated like machine guns. Then the cost of AR 15s would go up thousands. Think of all the money you could make selling out future gun owners for your 30 pieces of silver.
 
BTW - coolest man cave ever (mine of course).

DSC_7766-M.jpg
 
Snappo said:
My kids are all adult now, and I am pro NG in schools. Here is the thing though - how many elementary, middle, and high schools are there in USA? To hire and train two Guardsmen per school - what would the tax burden be? What percentage of parents would be willing to shoulder that burden, and what percent would request a less intrusive solution? Infoplease says there are 98,817 public schools in USA (it referenced National Center for Education Statistics). Call it 2 or 3 National Guardsmen per school; so 200K to 300K Guard need to be recruited? Are taxpayers going to be cool with that? Are parents going to be cool with that? And consider the worst attack - Sandy Hook. Let's say we stuff the metal detector right in the front door and it's high quality just like the newer airports. Would this whack job just have taken a rifle and picked off some folks before getting through the door because he knew he couldn't get in? Or maybe go to a public mall instead? I don't see how that is a solution, as much as I think shared mental databases and whatnot to catch these loons before the go off is a solid approach.
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I am fine with local law enforcement doing the job of patrolling schools. I really dont think we need NG or military style services doing the job. Its not their job anyway.
 
TurtleDude said:
you are not pro gun if you are ok with idiocy like the hughes amendment. I would never do business with anyone who supports that abomination because it made them money. Using that logic you might well support Feinstein's desire to make all Semi auto rifles treated like machine guns. Then the cost of AR 15s would go up thousands. Think of all the money you could make selling out future gun owners for your 30 pieces of silver.
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That's fine - I typically only do business with people I know. And I only know one ambulance chaser, and you aren't the one. Anyone with an FFL is making a ton of money on Class III; so maybe you should just buy saturday night specials from thugs on street corners. BTW - Hughes amendment was put into law by the late great GOP King, Ronny Raygun. I cannot imagine someone being pro 2A and not liking how he ran the show.
 
CRUE CAB said:
I am fine with local law enforcement doing the job of patrolling schools. I really dont think we need NG or military style services doing the job. Its not their job anyway.
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Local law enforcement would have to be re-trained to handle CQB. Still a pricy endeavor. I'm just pulling a number out of my a$$, but I could see the total cost for locking down schools from psychos running 50 billion a year. 100K schools needing 3 CQB experts each with a $60K salary and $10K of gear, plus a one-time investment of $40K worth of training per enforcement officer and a pair of metal detectors per school. That's some serious coin, actually. That burden has to come from taxpayers.
 
TurtleDude said:
you are not pro gun if you are ok with idiocy like the hughes amendment.
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And you aren't an officer of the court if you are OK with ignoring the will of the Senate and SCOTUS.
 
Snappo said:
And you aren't an officer of the court if you are OK with ignoring the will of the Senate and SCOTUS.
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Using that nonsense, no lawyer would argue that a law is improper. That would include the attorneys who got rid of the DC gun ban, the Chicago Gun ban, separate but "equal" etc. You apparently are OK with silly nonsense as long as it makes you money but you apparently don't understand the bad precedent that poison pill (designed to derail the McClure-Volker Firearms Owners Protection Act) created. If its "constitutional" to ban citizens owning any machine gun made after May 19, 1986 it would be just as "constitutional" to do the same thing to semi autos. And I deny it was the will of the senate and the USSC has not ruled on it. You might have an FFL and lots of guns-you don't seem to have much understanding of the underlying concepts of constitutional law and gun legislation.
 
Snappo said:
Local law enforcement would have to be re-trained to handle CQB. Still a pricy endeavor. I'm just pulling a number out of my a$$, but I could see the total cost for locking down schools from psychos running 50 billion a year. 100K schools needing 3 CQB experts each with a $60K salary and $10K of gear, plus a one-time investment of $40K worth of training per enforcement officer and a pair of metal detectors per school. That's some serious coin, actually. That burden has to come from taxpayers.
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I differ, I dont see where it would add that much to the budget to have at least one school resource officer and his vehicle at the school. Many do it already.
The hiring of one or two officers or even have the school as part of their patrol route is not a big expence.
Just knowing that officer is there all day or at random times will prevent someone coming to the school to do harm.
 
TurtleDude said:
Using that nonsense, no lawyer would argue that a law is improper. That would include the attorneys who got rid of the DC gun ban, the Chicago Gun ban, separate but "equal" etc. You apparently are OK with silly nonsense as long as it makes you money but you apparently don't understand the bad precedent that poison pill (designed to derail the McClure-Volker Firearms Owners Protection Act) created. If its "constitutional" to ban citizens owning any machine gun made after May 19, 1986 it would be just as "constitutional" to do the same thing to semi autos. And I deny it was the will of the senate and the USSC has not ruled on it. You might have an FFL and lots of guns-you don't seem to have much understanding of the underlying concepts of constitutional law and gun legislation.
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If SCOTUS says the Senate was legally allowed to ban certain firearms, then I am going to obey it. As it is, I can own quite a bit more than my fellow gun owners in Canada and England. I am pretty sure USA is the most wide-open of all the Western countries. If you are offended that people are making good money on Class III investments; you don't understand capitalism. And you seem hypocritical to me - on one hand you want me to favor a structure where I cannot make money, but at the same time you want me to support the conservative approach on 2A. Conservatives are typically the ones that are extremely pro capitalism, whereas Liberals are usually the ones that care more about societal needs than that of their own. So which is it? Should I be against making a buck or for making a buck? You do know if they repeal the Ronnie Raygun nazi lockdown, thousands and thousands of people are going to lose a crap-ton of money, right? Lots of folks buy Class III every year as an important part of their investment portfolio. They'd all be hosed if they bought full auto AR's and AK's for $20K only to have them end up worth $500 to $1K.
 
CRUE CAB said:
I differ, I dont see where it would add that much to the budget to have at least one school resource officer and his vehicle at the school. Many do it already.
The hiring of one or two officers or even have the school as part of their patrol route is not a big expence.
Just knowing that officer is there all day or at random times will prevent someone coming to the school to do harm.
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I'm not sure it will. Nutjobs are just that - nutjobs. I'm thinking a lot of them are planning on suicide-by-cop after the carnage settles down. I think there might actually have been cops at places like Columbine. Maybe a better solution is having all the teachers carry. At Elementary Schools in Israel, teachers carry full auto M4's when they take the kids out into the yards to play. And candidly, if I was suddenly thrust into a situation where I was within target-distance of a CQB; I would want a Marine, Seal, or Ranger there taking care of business as opposed to Barney Fife and Sheriff Andy.
 
Snappo said:
If SCOTUS says the Senate was legally allowed to ban certain firearms, then I am going to obey it. As it is, I can own quite a bit more than my fellow gun owners in Canada and England. I am pretty sure USA is the most wide-open of all the Western countries. If you are offended that people are making good money on Class III investments; you don't understand capitalism. And you seem hypocritical to me - on one hand you want me to favor a structure where I cannot make money, but at the same time you want me to support the conservative approach on 2A. Conservatives are typically the ones that are extremely pro capitalism, whereas Liberals are usually the ones that care more about societal needs than that of their own. So which is it? Should I be against making a buck or for making a buck? You do know if they repeal the Ronnie Raygun nazi lockdown, thousands and thousands of people are going to lose a crap-ton of money, right? Lots of folks buy Class III every year as an important part of their investment portfolio. They'd all be hosed if they bought full auto AR's and AK's for $20K only to have them end up worth $500 to $1K.
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I am going to call BS on all of this. Conservatives don't think its right to ban guns just so people like you can make some money. If you think the Hughes amendment is proper you are anti gun
 
Snappo said:
I'm not sure it will. Nutjobs are just that - nutjobs. I'm thinking a lot of them are planning on suicide-by-cop after the carnage settles down. I think there might actually have been cops at places like Columbine. Maybe a better solution is having all the teachers carry. At Elementary Schools in Israel, teachers carry full auto M4's when they take the kids out into the yards to play. And candidly, if I was suddenly thrust into a situation where I was within target-distance of a CQB; I would want a Marine, Seal, or Ranger there taking care of business as opposed to Barney Fife and Sheriff Andy.
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you put way too much faith in the military and you apparently have very little understanding of civilian self defense. My Nephew is a SF captain. Two tours of the heaviest fighting we saw in Iraq in the Rangers than 14 months in an A camp doing interdictions on a border some place in Afghanistan. Most of his stuff in iraq was offensive-counter offensive stuff and lots of house clearings. when on leave he comes back to his hometown and hangs out at the tactical pistol range with his uncle turtle working on stuff.
 
TurtleDude said:
you put way too much faith in the military and you apparently have very little understanding of civilian self defense. My Nephew is a SF captain. Two tours of the heaviest fighting we saw in Iraq in the Rangers than 14 months in an A camp doing interdictions on a border some place in Afghanistan. Most of his stuff in iraq was offensive-counter offensive stuff and lots of house clearings. when on leave he comes back to his hometown and hangs out at the tactical pistol range with his uncle turtle working on stuff.
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images
 
TurtleDude said:
I am going to call BS on all of this. Conservatives don't think its right to ban guns just so people like you can make some money. If you think the Hughes amendment is proper you are anti gun
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Your guns aren't banned. There are 300+ million small arms privately owned in USA, and tens of thousands of Class III weapons. I'm not anti-gun. You are an anti-law anarchist.
 
Snappo said:
Your guns aren't banned. There are 300+ million small arms privately owned in USA, and tens of thousands of Class III weapons. I'm not anti-gun. You are an anti-law anarchist.
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The idiocy mounts. YOu just cannot understand that if the Hughes Amendment is proper and constitutional-its application to semi autos would be just as proper. You might claim to have a FFL but you obviously have proven very little understanding of constitutional law and the concept of precedent
 
Snappo said:
I'm not sure it will. Nutjobs are just that - nutjobs. I'm thinking a lot of them are planning on suicide-by-cop after the carnage settles down. I think there might actually have been cops at places like Columbine. Maybe a better solution is having all the teachers carry. At Elementary Schools in Israel, teachers carry full auto M4's when they take the kids out into the yards to play. And candidly, if I was suddenly thrust into a situation where I was within target-distance of a CQB; I would want a Marine, Seal, or Ranger there taking care of business as opposed to Barney Fife and Sheriff Andy.
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True, but there is the reality of the numbers. How many schools? How many students? How many teachers? Now, how many have been shot at school by some crazed maniac?
I really dont think a military style lockdown of schools is justified at this point.
 
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