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Thread: School shooting this morning . . .

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Depends on how you define freedom, personally if I was an American who didn't own a gun I would feel oppressed.
    that's just moronic to believe your rights are limited because other people have rights



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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that's just moronic to believe your rights are limited because other people have rights
    well when you have to run emergency drills at schools, sent your kids to a school with armed guards, risk being shot in inner cities etc.... Its hardly "free" when you have to take precautions to protect yourself from other peoples "rights"
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Ass-backward.


    One must prove necessity to restrict a fundamental right, not to exercise it.
    Not sure the right is that fundamental any more. But He and you can make an argument concerning rights I might agree with. But TD argues the ammo is needed. I don't believe that. Nor do I believe I'm harmed in any way by the limitation.

    But, one can only deal with the argument presented, and TD argued he needed the ammo. The burden is his.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Its not so much we destroyed them more that we evolved.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    a society that takes more and more freedom from the people is hardly evolving. you are going back to the feudal era where only the ruling class could own crossbows (the one weapon by which an individual commoner could kill a knight in full armor)
    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Depends on how you define freedom, personally if I was an American who didn't own a gun I would feel oppressed.



    Higgins, I know you're well aware that the perspective (and history, culture, law, politics) on such things in America differs drastically from the viewpoints of most in Britain, so I'll try not to belabor the obvious.


    I would point out that Britain still has some serious problems with violent crime, thuggery and public misbehavior, much of it stemming from rugby hooligan clubs and late-night revelry getting out of hand... but no small amount of it from more serious criminal activity as well. The study saying Britain has 4x the US general violent crime rate has been posted many times, along with assertions that different methods of data-collecting and classification may be a factor granted... but still, it is indicative that one could argue whether "evolved" is really quite the right word to use.

    No offense intended there, of course... as we've mused on several occasions, Britain has its ways and America its own, and to each his own.

    It is simply that our history, culture, demographics, and what you might call "national mythology" revolves heavily around personal independence and self-reliance, as well as what we consider a healthy distrust of government, and of allowing any singular body to have an exclusive right to the means and use of force.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Higgins, I know you're well aware that the perspective (and history, culture, law, politics) on such things in America differs drastically from the viewpoints of most in Britain, so I'll try not to belabor the obvious.


    I would point out that Britain still has some serious problems with violent crime, thuggery and public misbehavior, much of it stemming from rugby hooligan clubs and late-night revelry getting out of hand... but no small amount of it from more serious criminal activity as well. The study saying Britain has 4x the US general violent crime rate has been posted many times, along with assertions that different methods of data-collecting and classification may be a factor granted... but still, it is indicative that one could argue whether "evolved" is really quite the right word to use.

    No offense intended there, of course... as we've mused on several occasions, Britain has its ways and America its own, and to each his own.

    It is simply that our history, culture, demographics, and what you might call "national mythology" revolves heavily around personal independence and self-reliance, as well as what we consider a healthy distrust of government, and of allowing any singular body to have an exclusive right to the means and use of force.

    No I agree we are very different however I am merely responding to TD'S claim that we are slipping backwards in time being stripped of our rights. For me and most people in the UK having less guns in the streets makes feels safer and therefore more free so in our eyes our gun laws have most certainly evolved.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    well when you have to run emergency drills at schools, sent your kids to a school with armed guards, risk being shot in inner cities etc.... Its hardly "free" when you have to take precautions to protect yourself from other peoples "rights"

    Actually a lot of that is a result of media hype. Such incidents are actually rare in most places, but the media furor over them makes them seem more common than they are.

    And granted, a lot of us on the pro-gun side may overhype our "need" out of a desire to score political points... in truth, you could live out your life in the average American small town without a firearm and the odds are pretty decent that you'd never suffer greatly from the lack.

    But yes, some areas are more violent than others, and a good many of us decline to play the odds and prefer to go armed anyway.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    In truth, you could live out your life in the average American small town without a firearm and the odds are pretty decent that you'd never suffer greatly from the lack.
    The odds are overwhelming you'd never suffer from the lack.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    No I agree we are very different however I am merely responding to TD'S claim that we are slipping backwards in time being stripped of our rights. For me and most people in the UK having less guns in the streets makes feels safer and therefore more free so in our eyes our gun laws have most certainly evolved.


    Something I've mused over on several occasions is that most injustice, oppression and crime is caused by a disparity of power.

    When two persons of equal power meet, they tend to be respectful of one another and wary of seeking to oppress, mistreat or victimize the other, because the risk is equal.

    It is when two persons meet and one has far more power on hand than the other that crime, oppression and injustice tend to occur.


    Britain's answer to that problem is to try to disarm everyone, thus rendering all on an equal footing.

    America's classical answer is let everyone who wishes to be armed, be armed... again, rendering all (who care to do so) on a roughly equal footing.


    Neither solution works perfectly of course. America suffers from split-personality on the subject by region and state and city, and some of the most high-crime urban areas are also those where local law has all but disarmed the honest citizens... a travesty of injustice in my eyes.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    The odds are overwhelming you'd never suffer from the lack.

    Well, I don't wish to quibble over terms... but I don't know that I'd go quite that far. Your odds of being targeted for a serious crime in any given year are statistically tiny, but over a lifetime add up to a statistically significant chance. Regrettably, this is especially true for women and attempted rape.

    Really, a lot of it depends on where you live. Some places are remarkably peaceful and pretty safe; others not so much. I didn't even realize that I lived in a high-crime county until a few years ago. No wonder I started carrying a gun at a rather young age.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Something I've mused over on several occasions is that most injustice, oppression and crime is caused by a disparity of power.

    When two persons of equal power meet, they tend to be respectful of one another and wary of seeking to oppress, mistreat or victimize the other, because the risk is equal.

    It is when two persons meet and one has far more power on hand than the other that crime, oppression and injustice tend to occur.


    Britain's answer to that problem is to try to disarm everyone, thus rendering all on an equal footing.

    America's classical answer is let everyone who wishes to be armed, be armed... again, rendering all (who care to do so) on a roughly equal footing.


    Neither solution works perfectly of course. America suffers from split-personality on the subject by region and state and city, and some of the most high-crime urban areas are also those where local law has all but disarmed the honest citizens... a travesty of injustice in my eyes.


    To expand on that, America wants something roughly like parity between the citizenry and the State; thus the Second.

    Also, the beauty of Concealed Carry is that criminals do not know who is or isn't armed... and must be wary that their lack of that information doesn't prove fatal to them when they choose a victim.

    Thus CC lends the cachet of equal power even to those who do not exercise it, to some degree.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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