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Thread: School shooting this morning . . .

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If if I said home invasions didn't happen this would be a good article. but it gives no insight as to how many rounds would have been needed to stop it. Again, no one has argued you can't defend yourself, except TD who says he can't with 7 rounds.
    Our arguments are fine. You have yet to make any kind of valid argument, except to state your opinions. Obviously there are times when more than 7 rounds would be needed. Seems that everyone is aware of this except you.

    If 7 rounds were enough, that is all the police would carry too. You brought up that a home owner isn't defending anyone else, and I showed you how THAT was wrong too. All of your points have been disputed, and you obviously now have nothing left but to repeat your weak opinion which means absolutely nothing.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you are getting deeper and deeper. you have to prove that when someone is confronted with FOUR ARMED CRIMINALS trying to KILL YOU-a lone citizen, you will never need more than 7 rounds to neutralize all four

    how many people have you ever shot Boo up close and personal with a handgun? did you know that the one shot stopping rate of most handguns with a SOLID CHEST HIT is less than 65% That is a center of mass hit.

    Your posts have demonstrated a frightening lack of mathematical reasoning.

    If hit ratios with handguns are less than 50% and even with solid hits, the stopping ratio is less than 65% and there are FOUR ARMED ATTACKERS TRYING TO KILL YOU what does our FRIEND MATHEMATICS teach us

    4 attackers with 50% hit ratios means EIGHT ROUNDS to effectively put ONE BULLET ON EACH ATTACKER

    now if stopping ratios are at best 2/3s that means what

    MORE THAN 8 rounds!! more like three or so more

    we are up to 11 rounds

    Damn Boo, your silly argument fails math
    This is probably before your time but there was this really famous guy named Mas Ayoob that wrote in all the gun mags I used to read before the Internet became viable. He used FBI study data to figure out what it took for a "one shot stop". The theory was that some caliber had to have been better at dropping a bad guy with a single shot than others. What he came up with was that the 10mm was the best at one-shot stops; and the best placement was the pelvic region. But I kind of remember the one-shot stops only being like 25% of the time and these were trained FBI shooters.. So I'm going to say 3 or 4 rounds in an assailant is a better number. IMHO of course. So three or four assailants I would think you want a 1911 and you want to get behind a table that's on it's side, behind a corner doorway, that sort of thing. Pick off a target, reload, reposition, and re-acquire the next target. Closed quarter battles are down to an art for the US Military and for well trained SWAT teams; but I think the average person is going to spray and pray.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Snappo View Post
    My kids are all adult now, and I am pro NG in schools. Here is the thing though - how many elementary, middle, and high schools are there in USA? To hire and train two Guardsmen per school - what would the tax burden be? What percentage of parents would be willing to shoulder that burden, and what percent would request a less intrusive solution? Infoplease says there are 98,817 public schools in USA (it referenced National Center for Education Statistics). Call it 2 or 3 National Guardsmen per school; so 200K to 300K Guard need to be recruited? Are taxpayers going to be cool with that? Are parents going to be cool with that? And consider the worst attack - Sandy Hook. Let's say we stuff the metal detector right in the front door and it's high quality just like the newer airports. Would this whack job just have taken a rifle and picked off some folks before getting through the door because he knew he couldn't get in? Or maybe go to a public mall instead? I don't see how that is a solution, as much as I think shared mental databases and whatnot to catch these loons before the go off is a solid approach.
    my kid goes to an expensive prep school in an area where the average home approaches 800K. But guess what-if it were allowed there would be dozens of fathers (and in my wife's case at least one mother) who are highly trained who would volunteer to do guard duty there. The very well trained elite police department in that village is less than 4 minutes away though. I recall sharing of a Jewish private school in I believe Texas where parents-some who had served in the IDF-take turns guarding their kids,

    so that is why I believe qualified teachers ought to be able to carry rather than hiring additional guards. My wife helps out at the school (she went to the nearby public school which is excellent but she wanted to attend the school I (and now my son) attended. She helps with the school shop, helps as a chaperone on field trips, helps with special events. She has a CCW and more than 200 hours of formal training at one of the very very best facilities that teaches cops, entry teams, private security forces and other armed civilians tactical deployment of weapons and strategy someone like her with her 9mm and her deep cover 380 sig is not the person a mope would see as the armed resistance if there was an attack. That is why people like her should be able to be armed at a school



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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Our arguments are fine. You have yet to make any kind of valid argument, except to state your opinions. Obviously there are times when more than 7 rounds would be needed. Seems that everyone is aware of this except you.

    If 7 rounds were enough, that is all the police would carry too. You brought up that a home owner isn't defending anyone else, and I showed you how THAT was wrong too. All of your points have been disputed, and you obviously now have nothing left but to repeat your weak opinion which means absolutely nothing.
    Chris,

    I didn't say something dumb like only having seven rounds prevents me from defending myself. And, no, I only have one point: you can still defend yourself with seven rounds.

    This is not brain surgery. He said something stupid and refused to own up.

    But like I said, I'm weary tonight. If you insist, I'll dance this with you tomorrow. But really, it's not complicated.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Chris,

    I didn't say something dumb like only having seven rounds prevents me from defending myself. And, no, I only have one point: you can still defend yourself with seven rounds.

    This is not brain surgery. He said something stupid and refused to own up.

    But like I said, I'm weary tonight. If you insist, I'll dance this with you tomorrow. But really, it's not complicated.
    You are saying all kinds of dumb things, like 7 rounds is going to be enough in every situation unless one can PROVE otherwise. Your argument is ridiculous.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    If 7 rounds were enough, that is all the police would carry too.
    Excellent point. But I think too that the weapon design was equally critical. Those 38 specials with plus-P or the 357's were not enough stopping power. And at that time Glock became a viable company, Baretta was manufacturing a ton of the 92's, , Taurus came out with the 99 FP (I have one of those, actually) etc. and it made sense to move to those new designs. I have about 4 or 5 Glocks of different calibers; and a few are only 10 rounds or so. My smaller XD has I think only a 2.5 or 3" barrel and without the extended mag I bet it's only about 8 rounds even though its a staggered design magazine. The tiny XD is only the 9mm parabelum and I really don't think those have much stopping power. Low energy, small wound cavity, small shock cavity, etc. That's why two of my Uzi's are Model 45. WAY more stopping power.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    You are saying all kinds of dumb things, like 7 rounds is going to be enough in every situation unless one can PROVE otherwise. Your argument is ridiculous.
    If you say so, but no one provided anyone using more than seven.

    But that really isn't the issue. Are you really defenseless with a gun and seven rounds? Go ahead, tell me you are with a straight face.

    Tomorrow.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Snappo View Post
    This is probably before your time but there was this really famous guy named Mas Ayoob that wrote in all the gun mags I used to read before the Internet became viable. He used FBI study data to figure out what it took for a "one shot stop". The theory was that some caliber had to have been better at dropping a bad guy with a single shot than others. What he came up with was that the 10mm was the best at one-shot stops; and the best placement was the pelvic region. But I kind of remember the one-shot stops only being like 25% of the time and these were trained FBI shooters.. So I'm going to say 3 or 4 rounds in an assailant is a better number. IMHO of course. So three or four assailants I would think you want a 1911 and you want to get behind a table that's on it's side, behind a corner doorway, that sort of thing. Pick off a target, reload, reposition, and re-acquire the next target. Closed quarter battles are down to an art for the US Military and for well trained SWAT teams; but I think the average person is going to spray and pray.
    before my time? LOL I have been a guest instructor in Mas Ayoob's LFI when it was held in SW Ohio.

    Evan Marshall found the 357 125 grain JHP was best but that was before there was much data on the 10MM

    Oh I used to shoot with the top three FBI guys in our district. They were good shots. They knew the head of my department. I think the HRT sniper said to him-Damn that lawyer is faster than anything we have in the agency. Of course IPSC GMs don't tend to work for the FBI though t

    what you say has some merit-I prefer a SW MP over the 1911. I am not a big fan of grip safeties-(which is why lots of IPSC masters have them pinned)

    but your one stop data supports my point. and true-being behind cover is definitely the right thing to do whenever it is possible. that's why my son has a heavy duty browning safe in his upstairs room and the top of the stairs (the wife and I are downstairs). it gives him cover that will stop a 30-06 and he can address any problem coming up the stair with that cover in front of him



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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    Go buy yourself a $3 special off the street and you will have a weapon that's more suitable for protecting yourself than a target rifle. One for every room, one for under your pillow, one for your nose even if you think you will be safer.

    And of course you have all those guns loaded and not in a locked safe? I hope you don't have children or have other people's children in your house. If you do then I feel that I should be reporting you to the proper authorities before there's an accident that is going to be attitude adjusting.
    Every weapon I own is legally placed in my house. But if you want to call BATFE and report that you feel all guns must be in a locked safe and that you believe you know someone who does not keep them all locked up, by all means do. Then give this website. When BATFE asks to inspect my home (which actually they would not do - they would ask me to bring my BATFE registry to their most local office), I can give them my FFL number and from that they would have my address. Here in NY I do not have to keep my weapons locked up or un-chambered. I can put my hunting rifles in my truck in the back window if I like, I can put guns in each room and don't have to put them in my little safes, and I can pretty much do whatever I damn well please with them on my property. If I carry off my premises I just have to conceal them. But at any rate- I think you should call Obama, the FBI, the NSA, the BATFE, and the NY State PD to say you know someone who keeps some of his weapons outside of his safes.

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    Re: School shooting this morning . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    before my time? LOL I have been a guest instructor in Mas Ayoob's LFI when it was held in SW Ohio.

    Evan Marshall found the 357 125 grain JHP was best but that was before there was much data on the 10MM

    Oh I used to shoot with the top three FBI guys in our district. They were good shots. They knew the head of my department. I think the HRT sniper said to him-Damn that lawyer is faster than anything we have in the agency. Of course IPSC GMs don't tend to work for the FBI though t

    what you say has some merit-I prefer a SW MP over the 1911. I am not a big fan of grip safeties-(which is why lots of IPSC masters have them pinned)

    but your one stop data supports my point. and true-being behind cover is definitely the right thing to do whenever it is possible. that's why my son has a heavy duty browning safe in his upstairs room and the top of the stairs (the wife and I are downstairs). it gives him cover that will stop a 30-06 and he can address any problem coming up the stair with that cover in front of him
    Of my modern pistols, I think my M&P 40 might have the worst 3 shot groups. I really dislike it and I don't even bother shooting it anymore.

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