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Thread: The Republican civil war is just getting started

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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    BHO is so liberal that the 'liberals' chose to not vote in 2010 due to him adopting Repub ideas and of course, Rahm..
    Wait till you hear the howls when Keystone goes through in 2015!!
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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Well, who exactly are you talking about?

    Tea parties did not exist as such until Feb 2009 or so. Their libertarian (mostly Paulite) predecessors had no representation in the Congress with the sole true exception of Ron Paul himself, and a couple of partial exceptions. Politicians they have promoted - from Chris Christie to Justin Amash - were not in the office. Since they've got into the office, their overall record was actually surprisingly decent.

    Of course, there are always pests like Michelle Bachmann - opportunists who promote themselves as "leaders of the movement", while their record shows complete indifference to the "movement"'s goals (at best). But they have never been associated - in any quality - with any actual tea parties - the grassroots organizations on county and lower levels. Take any "socially conservative", anti-immigrant or militaristic demagogue claiming to be a "tea partier" - and it's every time almost exactly the same story: An impostor promoted by the likes of MSNBC and FOX.
    You say these people are "imposters" yet time and time again the Tea Partiers INVITE these people.

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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Lol, when you're in that much debt as a country? Nope. Not one bit. We may as well be 40 trillion in debt - judging by the supposed "fiscal conservatism" of the right and the left's spending, we may soon be. The difference between left wing spending and right wing spending is that the right wing only cares about spending when they're not in power.
    Well if they continue at this rate, we'll be at 40 trillion in about 4 months.

    Nevertheless, I think there's validity in pointing out a degree of hypocrisy on the right - at least w/r to spending. Our representatives in congress haven't exactly been paragons of fiscal conservatism themselves. That we, the minions, are somehow "ok" with that or that we've been silent only till now though is a bit in error. Have we been as vehement about it as we have these past 5 or 6 years? No. But then, neither have we seen the spending climb so astronomically in such a short amount of time either - regardless how it's justified or explained away.

    It's human nature to be less vehement, less passionate about something when the full effect of the consequences aren't perceived to be imminent; but the closer the end comes, the clearer the consequences, the more "real" they become and the more urgent we all become to do something about it. Call it having our heads in the sand, call it naivete, call it wishful thinking, call it whatever, we're all like that. The question is, when will the left start becoming as vehement about it as we've become and join us in calling our representatives out to change it?
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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    Now, go back and recalculate those numbers and account for inflation. Or calculate those numbers as a percent to GDP......Otherwise they are out of context and misleading so they can tell the story you want them to tell.
    Sure thing. Here it is pegged in 1983 dollars

    83-93 -- 1.7 trillion
    93-03 -- 600 billion
    03-13 -- 3.5 trillion (2.6 trillion since 2008)

    Geez, that makes it look even worse. I guess you should haven't complained about a non adjusted value.

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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    Ralph Reed had the clout to carve out a significant third party, but instead of going that route he allied his Christian Conservative movement to the republican party which, fearing a third party gave him the voice he wanted for the movement. This move made them politically powerful again at a time when they were weakening. They've tried the same with the tea party movement, to keep the folks then gravitating to third parties in the fold (mainly libertarian). The fit isn't near as neat as with the CCs and there is a lot of infighting for the direction of the party.

    I see two possibilities. One, the republican party could clean house and unify. After some struggles and faceplants this would likely leave the party in an eventually very powerful position. Two, the folks who went independent rather than stay with the republicans could coalesce with the saner elements of the TP and vote third party. Perot's name will be invoked often.

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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    wonderful cat-fight on MSNBC between Bashir and Klayman
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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    You say these people are "imposters" yet time and time again the Tea Partiers INVITE these people.
    You have thousands of tea party groups, thousands of local, state and federal campaigns. Whenever a "celebrity" like Bachmann or Palin is invited to speak (which does not mean, by the way, that their views are entirely shared by the hosts), it makes news. Whenever they are not, it doesn't - because - well, nothing 'newsworthy' has happened. 'A bunch of area geeks discuss federal fiscal issues", as The Onion would quip. What you see is a reflection on how the media works, not on the tea parties in general.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 10-18-13 at 05:27 PM.

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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    You say these people are "imposters" yet time and time again the Tea Partiers INVITE these people.
    Cyrylek demonstrates perfectly why I think that the Tea Party movement, and the general sentiment from it that's permeated a large portion of the base, is one that is very well suited to work excellently as part of a regional focused electoral strategy but fails as you move to more of a federal one.

    This is why I've suggested for some time that the Tea Party will have it's most success in the House, have a more difficult time in the senate, and would be hard pressed to garner anywhere near the same level of support and fervor for a Presidential election.

    The movement builds off the notion of a unifying "foundation" that is closely tied with traditional notions of Fiscal and Governmental conservatism...low taxes, empower business, control spending, restrain and clean up government, etc.

    This is a baseline foundation that amongst the "big tent" of conservatives you'll generally find every disparate group will support to a certain degree. Libertarians, Constitutionalists, Reagan-Democrats, the Religious Right, Fiscally Conservative Hawks, Paleoconservatives, even Neo-Conservatives to a point could all get behind this general message.

    However, the issue is that elections and platforms don't just focus on Fiscal and Governmental issues. There are other issues that must be talked about and addressed and stances must be taken. Additionally, there is a measure of balance...how much focus one facet gets over another, and when those two facets conflict which one is weighted heavier.

    The beauty of the Tea Party movement in terms of motivating a conservative base in regional situations is that you can take this unifying foundation...and then you build upon it for that region. A "Tea Party" politician in rural Alabama is likely supplementing that foundation with strong "traditional" Social Conservatism and allowing that to override some of the governmental tennats of the tea party when it conflicts where as one in Vermont is likely very socially liberal, being open to things like removal of drug laws and gay marriage. A candidate in Hampton Roads VA may be a bit of a Hawk and have no issue spending money on the Military as part of the core jobs of the government, while one in California may be advocating for the reduction of the Military Industrial Complex to cut the debt.

    When they get to congress they may class on some of those exterior things, but the thought process would be that in terms of the Tea Parties foundational message that they'd have a unifying voice. And by and large, in the House, that's what's happened.

    The problem is that as you expand from regional to state and from state to federal, those "add-ons" become more tricky. Especially at the Federal Level. A Vermont Tea Partier probably saw Ron Paul as their perfect candidate and what a "true" tea partier should be because his "add-ons" are more in line. An Alabama tea partier probably said Michelle Bachman while a guy in Hampton Roads went with Herman Cain and the Californian went with Huntsman ... and all think THEIR guy is the REAL tea partier.

    Why?

    Because they mistakenly assume that their regional "add-ons" that are important to them...but are entirely non-existant within the foundational message of the tea party...is what makes a "REAL" tea partier.

    That's why I think this fight is going to be so fascinating from a political science stand point. I actually think the Tea Party mentality, even if it breaks down from an actual "named" movement, is one that I believe can continue to have long standing success within the House of Representatives. What will be interesting is to see how it continues within the Senate, which has been a mixed bag. The biggest question however is going to be whether or not a charismatic candidate can emerge for the Presidency that can bring with him a right mixture of those "add-ons" that satisfies the desires of, and doesn't turn off, enough of the movement on a national level to keep the fervor and support at the necessary level to reach success. That's the big question.

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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael66 View Post
    It may just be a situation in which the tea baggers have to win in order to bring down your country to the level at which the people will start to fight for their rights and a fair share. If that's the case then there is a great deal of suffering to be endured by the ordinary American before your country wises up.

    In reality, I think the tea bagger agenda will be completely defused when Obama's term is over and the racist element no longer exists. The baggers will no longer have the motivation that keeps them hating.
    I'm thinking the same.

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    Re: The Republican civil war is just getting started

    Democrats have taken the position that Congress is merely one agency of an Imperial presidency. Being just employees of the President, disagreement between them in their view is both intolerable and irrelevant. All that matters is what their boss says.

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