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Thread: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143:248]

  1. #181
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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    This to me, with all due respect Ditto is the deflection problem that permeates the current administration, and progressive argument we have today.

    To think that it is up to the minority party to come up with a solution to a massive problem that was 100% of the majority party's making, is akin to me to throwing your hands in the air, after walking into a room and kicking all the domino's over, and saying that it is up to others to figure out how to fix it, and save their asses.

    No, it is up to those who broke it, and they now own it lock, stock, and barrel.
    The problems are the increasing cost of health care and the numbers of uninsured. This is a problem that has existed for some time, with no one addressing it.

    The Democrats tried to address the problem, and came up with a patchwork fix that addresses some of it. It is a compromise attesting to the fact that politics is the art of the possible. Obamacare is what was possible to pass. It partially addresses the issue of the uninsured, but doesn't address the issue of cost. There is a lot of work to do before we really have a health care system that is worthy of a wealthy nation in the 21st. century.

    but, my point was this, regarding the individual mandate: If we, as a society, are willing to allow the accident victim, or the person with a serious illness, to either get well or die on his own, then we have no right to insist that anyone have insurance. If, on the other hand, we treat that illness or injury at our expense, then we have every right to insist that everyone have insurance or pay a tax to pay for the cost of the uninsured. It's a matter of individual responsibility.
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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    Educate people, and then let them make their own choices. Sure, it sucks to see people make bad choices and suffer the consequences. We can't simply take away the consequences for them. It seems as if you want to take away their choices. I don't think that creates a better society.
    How are you going to convince the rest of society to allow people to accept the consequences of not having health insurance? You say we can't take away the consequences, and that's partially true, but we can and do treat accident victims and people with serious diseases even when they can't pay. Allowing them to accept the consequences would mean that the paramedics don't come and take them away from the accident scene and try to keep them alive. It would mean we just leave them to their own devices, just as happens in some of the third world nations.
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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    Quote Originally Posted by francois60 View Post
    This is a great point. As a libertarian, I can't even bring myself to have emergency rooms turn people away.



    For starters, the actual Republican plan from 1993, minus the mandate, would be good. The ACA is based on it, but that's like movies that are "based on a true story." There's a lot of embellishment. Likewise, the Democrats added a lot of things that Republicans would never have supported. Such as mandates for maternity care, no lifetime limits, etc., that push up the cost of insurance. The Republican plan would have just made insurance more affordable through the use of subsidies, and people could choose whatever they wanted. That is the primary flaw with the law, is that the Democrats are trying to force people to buy more than they want, and primarily for political purposes, not medical.

    Actually though, I'd prefer a single-payer, catastrophic only system. Individuals would be responsible for all routine medical costs, while the government would cover the things that don't actually happen to everyone.
    That's exactly the sort of system we need in order to control costs.
    But, politics being the art of the possible, we'll likely not see it any time soon.

    Right wing: Single payer? Socialism!
    Left wing: Pay for our own doctor's visits? You must hate the poor!

    Try to get the two sides together somehow.
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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    but, my point was this, regarding the individual mandate: If we, as a society, are willing to allow the accident victim, or the person with a serious illness, to either get well or die on his own, then we have no right to insist that anyone have insurance. If, on the other hand, we treat that illness or injury at our expense, then we have every right to insist that everyone have insurance or pay a tax to pay for the cost of the uninsured. It's a matter of individual responsibility.
    It sounds to me like you are saying it's a matter of social responsibility...not individual responsibility. What do we, as a society, want to do...leave it up to the individual...or make the individual pay whether they want to or not.

    If it were a matter of individual responsibility, there would be no question.
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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    It also seems to me that you can't start something based on a social responsibility and then when that creates problems, start limiting individuals' choices too. I acknowledge the problems caused by uncompensated care, but I prefer that problem to the problems ACA creates.

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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You are back to the same hole again, name these slaves.

    How is a medical worker who is paid by an insurance provider a "slave"?
    The medical worker is not the one whose resources you claim to have a right to, not directly any way.

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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    That's still the argument. It hasn't been dropped. If you have a right to health care, then someone must provide it for you.
    The slave is the one who is forced to provide a service for you.
    It's not that difficult a concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You are back to the same hole again, name these slaves.

    How is a medical worker who is paid by an insurance provider a "slave"?
    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    The medical worker is not the one whose resources you claim to have a right to, not directly any way.
    That contradicts your previous claim that the medical provider is the slave.

    As I said, you keep losing track of your argument.
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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    How are you going to convince the rest of society to allow people to accept the consequences of not having health insurance? You say we can't take away the consequences, and that's partially true, but we can and do treat accident victims and people with serious diseases even when they can't pay. Allowing them to accept the consequences would mean that the paramedics don't come and take them away from the accident scene and try to keep them alive. It would mean we just leave them to their own devices, just as happens in some of the third world nations.
    You seem to be assuming that without government involvement people with serious illnesses or accident victims would die on the streets. This appears to to rule out the idea that people cannot help each other w=ithout government involvement.

    The fact is that Americans did well for a couple of centuries without government involvement in health care and now that they are involved does anyone still believe that it will be an improvement? The fact is that when there was a health crisis, such as polio or any other natural disaster, people worked together, Certainly there was temporary government involvement but only in extreme cases. Now there are people who are becoming dependent on the government for all their needs, and computer glitches will be the least of the nation's worries.

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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    And so the debate is settled. Health care for everybody is evil. Just ask any Canadian who knows all about death panels that kill our grannies and lineups to see a doctor that stretch a mile on a good day. America wouldn't want that, especially if it was given to them by one of 'those' people.

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    Re: Insurers reportedly receiving faulty data from ObamaCare exchanges [W:143]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    The problems are the increasing cost of health care and the numbers of uninsured. This is a problem that has existed for some time, with no one addressing it.
    You'll excuse me if I hear that as .... Blah, blah, blah! at this point...This meme is drilled constantly by the MSM...It's old.

    The Democrats tried to address the problem, and came up with a patchwork fix that addresses some of it. It is a compromise attesting to the fact that politics is the art of the possible. Obamacare is what was possible to pass.
    Think about that....It was only possible by bribing a few members of a virtual super majority in congress, then shoved through on a party line vote in the middle of the night without even reading, much less understanding what they were voting for. Is that the way we do things now?

    It partially addresses the issue of the uninsured, but doesn't address the issue of cost. There is a lot of work to do before we really have a health care system that is worthy of a wealthy nation in the 21st. century.
    You want to see real anger? shove through single payer. The moment people open that paycheck and realize that $650 per week take home is now going to be $400 so that demo's achieved in conning them into a socialized medicine scheme that started with O-care, and there will be unrest.

    but, my point was this, regarding the individual mandate: If we, as a society, are willing to allow the accident victim, or the person with a serious illness, to either get well or die on his own, then we have no right to insist that anyone have insurance. If, on the other hand, we treat that illness or injury at our expense, then we have every right to insist that everyone have insurance or pay a tax to pay for the cost of the uninsured. It's a matter of individual responsibility.
    This bill didn't achieve anything of the sort....There will STILL be 30 million uninsured, regardless of the attempt to use a governmental heavy hand....There were other ways much less intrusive, but progressives rarely see anything other than force to be able to pass their crap, because without it, it simply wouldn't be tolerated.
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