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Thread: House approves bill to end shutdown

  1. #51
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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    According to the Administration, they are not fixing anything until after it gets implemented. Which is not a real smart thing to do.
    Actually in a system where you are not sure of where the problems will come with costs that is exactly what you do. You put it into effect and you hammer out the details. Expecting perfection from the start is a BS tactic that the reps use because they do not want anything at all. Was the original constitution perfect when they put it in place? hell no, that is an absurd goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    What is burning me up about this is they are still allowing the President (any President, not just this one) to change portions of the law without Congressional approval. To me, that is a violation of the Constitutional powers of the President.
    Actually the president does have powers to decide how to implement the law. That is just you being wrong about what a president does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    And why I say that...
    During the Bush years, he was lambasted for going through the secretive FISA courts to wire tap peoples phones. We the people complained and the politicians gave it lip service so they seemed like they cared, but did nothing. Now we have a President that is collecting every single phone call and e-mail from every single American in the country...and now there is not even lip service against it.
    This is a whole different issue, and I agree those laws are unconstitutional and should not be in place. If the republicans in congress took obama to task over the activities of the NSA I would be all for it. They would get cheers from me for doing it. They are not going to do it because they want those powers too, and that is why I take the position they are all enemies. Still you could eliminate Obamacare and your problem still exists. Hell, if Boehner said end the patriot and espionage act or else he will not fund the government I would consider voting for the man for president as a good thing. But he didn't do that. No one made a grand stand against the patriot act. Even when they could have put it in there no one came forward to do it. So please do not tell me there are heroes in either party in that fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    You give one President an inch to bend the law the next one will take a mile shattering the law while those that represent us do nothing.
    Yeah, I have been saying that since Bush made the patriot act. I do not want obama to have that power and anyone who stood up to stop that would get immediate respect from me. Sarah Bachman could stand up and demand that and i would have to re-evaluate my position on her a good distance. That is one of those things I would actually vote for a pro-life, anti gay marriage candidate for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Consolidation of power under one branch while the others do nothing to stop it, some actually encouraging it.
    The president has always had the power to enforce the laws. It is the purpose of the branch.

  2. #52
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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Some quick thoughts:

    1. I'm glad the impasse has been broken.

    2. The outcome is more about preserving the consitutional authority of the Presidency by thwarting a precedent that could have led to "must pass" legislation being used to strip authority from the President--President Obama and future Presidents--by factions that could not accomplish their goals through the normal legislative order.

    3. The Affordable Care Act can be addressed and opportunities for reform exist. Those processes should take place through the normal legislative process.

    4. On the default issue, technical default might have been avoidable, but there's no guarantee, even with prioritization. Technical default would occur if the government misses either a debt service or principal payment. Had some share of Treasury holders chosen not to roll over their Treasury securities that were coming due, technical default would have resulted. Cash inflows can easily cover interest payments. They are insufficient to cover maturing Treasury obligations.

    5. Even if technical default occurred, a sizable economic recession could have unfolded given the size of federal deficits relative to the economy (3%-4% of GDP + multiplier effects).

    In the end, Senator Ted Cruz may well have resembled the kind of demagogue Alexander Hamilton discussed in Federalist No. 1. Hamilton wrote:

    it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.

    Cruz and the Tea Party faction's unwillingness to raise the debt ceiling (and fund government) was based on a supposed desire to "help" the American people. However, it was an extreme pursuit of a non-fiscal pursuit that had nothing to do with either issue and exposed the American people to substantial risk of harm.

  3. #53
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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Thank you. Its about time someone actually produced something like this. Well done!

    Of course, the question of default is much broader than simple debt service. The government's inability to meet its obligations when they are due makes them insolvent; which has another set of consequences (Fitch was ready to downgrade).

    Nonetheless, I have heard this mantra many times... I just wanted someone to defend it. You did.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 10-17-13 at 01:56 PM.

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    we could never have defaulted....
    Risk not worth taking.


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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    why do you believe a default was in the cards?
    Yes . Very high chance it could of happen

    not even Moody's thought we were at risk for a default.... even if the shutdown continued or the debt ceiling wasn't increased?
    Not a risk willing to take.


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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas105 View Post
    Well, hopefully the Libertarian party will grow in Congress with these next elections. The shutdown was just one more example of another "Great Awakening" with the American people.



    Yea.... Except those "libetarians" in the tea party, their approval raitings are at a all time low.. No awakening happening there....


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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    But something to remember going forward: 144 Republicans in the House and 18 Republicans in the Senate voted for the United States to default on its debt. They were willing to destroy the full faith and credit of this country to ... what? Grow Ted Cruz's email list?

  8. #58
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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I can tell you why that is illogical, but I am not going to as that isn't my point. (which is that I am tired of people reiterating stuff they learned from Rush, but really have no command of the core issue). The fact that the government has sufficient funds for debt coverage does not mean the government is solvent.

    I want you to show that you actually did some research on this. If this is true, that the government could not raise the debt limit and it there would not be dire consequences, then it would be pretty easy to find informed, credible support for the position. To constantly say this stuff and not having researched it is to not have an informed opinion (as I know you don't). If you can't back up your claim with experts, you probably are out on a limb (which you are).

    The more you refuse to back up your assertions, the more you prove to all of us that you don't really know what you are talking about.

    no its because you have nothing, my information is so easy to get on the net

    is interest on the debt mandatory sending..yes.

    is mandatory spending out of congress hands... yes

    is mandatory spending required to be paid no matter what happens...yes

    did the government bring in 2.7 trillion in revenue last year....yes

    on average what is 2.7 trillion divided by 12....225 billion a month

    what was the interest on the debt per month last year ..... about 22 billion a month

    does having 225 billion dollars give you enough money to pay a 22 billion dollar payment ...yes it does.

    if you dont have the ability to find this for yourself, becuase you can only find the DP web site, and have to have experts.....tell you everything...then it its proof of the failing of the american education system.

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    If your getting that information from internet polls, its usually complete partisan bull****.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Yea.... Except those "libetarians" in the tea party, their approval raitings are at a all time low.. No awakening happening there....
    "When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    does having 225 billion dollars give you enough money to pay a 22 billion dollar payment ...yes it does.
    Debt service includes both principal and interest payments. If the government can successfully roll over maturing Treasury securities, then ability to cover interest payments alone determines whether debt default takes place. However, were the federal government to default on other obligations, one cannot assume that every holder of maturing Treasury securities would roll them over at maturity. Numerous countries experienced rapidly weakening demand for debt securities leading both to skyrocketing interest rates and increasingly unsuccessful debt auctions as they approached debt default.

    Each week, the Treasury rolls over approximately $100 billion in maturing Treasury securities. That exceeds average monthly revenue.

    Remarks of Secretary Lew before the Economic Club of Washington, D.C.

    Moreover, neither maturing obligations nor revenue flows are relatively equal each month.

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