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Thread: House approves bill to end shutdown

  1. #41
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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I didn't ask for your reasoning based on a naive understanding of economics. I asked you to support your position with credible evidence of experts. As I suspected, you can not.

    Again, show us how not raising the debt ceiling would not be catastrophic for the economy.... produce a cite from a credible source (hint, you are not a credible source) or stand down.

    When your opinion is challenged you choose laziness and ignorance, like most that hold this view. You don't know and don't want to know. That is scary.
    experts.......your kidding right, you need an expert to tell you the revenue into america for 2013 is?

    you need and expert to tell you what the debt payment is?

    you cant figure out 2.7 trillion divided by 12 is?


    please.....your smarter then that.

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    not really, it was the only option available.... there was no time to negotiate any other spending levels


    in any event, it's just a game of kick the can down the road until January... i'm pretty confident the 2 idiot parties will **** it all up again
    They definitely took the "shut down the government over Obamacare" off the table. I think it will be very hard to play the "shut the government" or "not raise the debt ceiling" card unless they can steer the Democrats into the position where it appears they locked the doors. That will be very hard to do. They try to play this card again and they will defy mathematical probabilities and actually lose the House. You can get away with one or two bluffs in poker game.

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    experts.......your kidding right, you need an expert to tell you the revenue into america for 2013 is?

    you need and expert to tell you what the debt payment is?

    you cant figure out 2.7 trillion divided by 12 is?


    please.....your smarter then that.
    I can tell you why that is illogical, but I am not going to as that isn't my point. (which is that I am tired of people reiterating stuff they learned from Rush, but really have no command of the core issue). The fact that the government has sufficient funds for debt coverage does not mean the government is solvent.

    I want you to show that you actually did some research on this. If this is true, that the government could not raise the debt limit and it there would not be dire consequences, then it would be pretty easy to find informed, credible support for the position. To constantly say this stuff and not having researched it is to not have an informed opinion (as I know you don't). If you can't back up your claim with experts, you probably are out on a limb (which you are).

    The more you refuse to back up your assertions, the more you prove to all of us that you don't really know what you are talking about.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 10-17-13 at 02:05 AM.

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    They definitely took the "shut down the government over Obamacare" off the table. I think it will be very hard to play the "shut the government" or "not raise the debt ceiling" card unless they can steer the Democrats into the position where it appears they locked the doors. That will be very hard to do. They try to play this card again and they will defy mathematical probabilities and actually lose the House. You can get away with one or two bluffs in poker game.
    it's pretty much over with GOP Republican until after the elections...
    they have no leverage to use to get concessions... and Democrats have nothing to lose by shutting them out yet again
    Obama knows this, which is why he is immediately getting into immigration reform.... he can buy Hispanic votes and the GOP doesn't have the political capital or the public support to do anything about it.

    it would be nice if Democrat and Republican could sit down and negotiate in earnest, but it won't happen....
    Blue America versus Red America is still the order of the day, just the way the leaders want it

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I can tell you why that is illogical, but I am not going to as that isn't my point. (which is that I am tired of people reiterating stuff they learned from Rush, but really have no command of the core issue). The fact that the government has sufficient funds for debt coverage does not mean the government is solvent.

    I want you to show that you actually did some research on this. If this is true, that the government could not raise the debt limit and it there would not be dire consequences, then it would be pretty easy to find informed, credible support for the position. To constantly say this stuff and not having researched it is to not have an informed opinion (as I know you don't). If you can't back up your claim with experts, you probably are out on a limb (which you are).

    The more you refuse to back up your assertions, the more you prove to all of us that you don't really know what you are talking about.
    he saying the same stuff Moody's is saying... that's where I got my information too.

    the only folks screaming about an impending default were the administration... they actively pushed that narrative.

  6. #46
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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    what concessions were awarded to the "right wing loonies"?... be specific.
    before I tell you it is not that I disagree with the concessions, just that putting them there will be taken the wrong way by the loonies. It will embolden them down the road to go for more radical stuff rather than actually looking to come up with good ideas to fix obamacare or make it better.

    The concessions that i know of are that congress is supposed to use the exchanges now, and they will put more effort into making sure people who claim subsidies are rightfully doing so. I could be wrong about those actually being in there. There has been a lot of back and forth, but i think those provisions were added in there. I agree it should have been in there, but the reality is it should not have been allowed to be attached to the budget. They should have had real votes on making that happen so people could see in the open which representatives were supportive of these ideas and which were not. We cannot tell now because the big thing was getting the government started and the debt ceiling. This is why I hate riders.

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Kindly produce a reference from a credible economist that agrees with this position, as it is generally regarded as a position held by the ill-informed. You believing it to be true does not make it true. If you can't produce such a reference then, if you are smart, you too will no longer believe it to be true.
    Moody’s Confirms: US Won’t Default | Power Line

    Steven Hess, Moody’s principal U.S. sovereign credit analyst, said:We believe the government would continue to pay interest and principal on its debt even in the event that the debt limit is not raised, leaving its creditworthiness intact. The debt limit restricts government expenditures to the amount of its incoming revenues; it does not prohibit the government from servicing its debt. There is no direct connection between the debt limit (actually the exhaustion of the Treasury’s extraordinary measures to raise funds) and a default.

    The statutory debt limit is a limit on the amount of debt outstanding. As debt matures, it can be refinanced with new Treasury issuance without affecting the total amount of debt (principal). Interest, by contrast, is an expenditure and could be included among the expenses that the Treasury could decide not to pay.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    before I tell you it is not that I disagree with the concessions, just that putting them there will be taken the wrong way by the loonies. It will embolden them down the road to go for more radical stuff rather than actually looking to come up with good ideas to fix obamacare or make it better.

    The concessions that i know of are that congress is supposed to use the exchanges now, and they will put more effort into making sure people who claim subsidies are rightfully doing so. I could be wrong about those actually being in there. There has been a lot of back and forth, but i think those provisions were added in there. I agree it should have been in there, but the reality is it should not have been allowed to be attached to the budget. They should have had real votes on making that happen so people could see in the open which representatives were supportive of these ideas and which were not. We cannot tell now because the big thing was getting the government started and the debt ceiling. This is why I hate riders.
    The Congress & the exchange thing was set way before the deal was made. Congress and their staffers had to go through the exchanges for insurance but were subsidized as if it were the employers portion of it being paid. Unless there is something added to that, which I am not sure of, I havent seen the approved bill yet.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    The Congress & the exchange thing was set way before the deal was made. Congress and their staffers had to go through the exchanges for insurance but were subsidized as if it were the employers portion of it being paid. Unless there is something added to that, which I am not sure of, I havent seen the approved bill yet.
    It was very vague what the concessions were every time I read it. It seems the reps are not bragging, and the dems are not spiking. I assume it was something just enough to let the republicans pretend they got something. I am actually fine with that. I just want the dems to remember when they come back to the table to start left and not where this bill goes. This present bill was the hammered out reduced ACA. If they want to argue the issue again start from the beginning and not from the end because republicans are not going to start anywhere but full repeal. If they do not have a suggestion to improve the ACA make them argue the whole thing again and not kick the budget down the road for the next year until elections.

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    Re: House approves bill to end shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    It was very vague what the concessions were every time I read it. It seems the reps are not bragging, and the dems are not spiking. I assume it was something just enough to let the republicans pretend they got something. I am actually fine with that. I just want the dems to remember when they come back to the table to start left and not where this bill goes. This present bill was the hammered out reduced ACA. If they want to argue the issue again start from the beginning and not from the end because republicans are not going to start anywhere but full repeal. If they do not have a suggestion to improve the ACA make them argue the whole thing again and not kick the budget down the road for the next year until elections.
    All they have been doing for decades is kick the can down the road for someone else to deal with.

    According to the Administration, they are not fixing anything until after it gets implemented. Which is not a real smart thing to do.

    What is burning me up about this is they are still allowing the President (any President, not just this one) to change portions of the law without Congressional approval. To me, that is a violation of the Constitutional powers of the President.

    And why I say that...
    During the Bush years, he was lambasted for going through the secretive FISA courts to wire tap peoples phones. We the people complained and the politicians gave it lip service so they seemed like they cared, but did nothing. Now we have a President that is collecting every single phone call and e-mail from every single American in the country...and now there is not even lip service against it.

    You give one President an inch to bend the law the next one will take a mile shattering the law while those that represent us do nothing.

    Consolidation of power under one branch while the others do nothing to stop it, some actually encouraging it.
    Last edited by Imnukingfutz; 10-17-13 at 07:33 AM.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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